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Post by director on Apr 15, 2021 19:05:21 GMT -6
As far as I can see, the only in-game advantage to armored sides of the hangar is to provide some protection from surface ships. My current carrier designs feature a 3" belt, 3" deck, 2" or 3" flight-deck armor and no side armor. The flight-deck armor didn't stop a 1600-lb bomb but proved reasonably resistant to the 500-600lb sizes.
If I have this right - and if I don't I'm sure you fellows will set me right - American carriers had one hangar deck, with a fairly high-ceiling. I'm assuming the workshops and such were on the next deck down, since British and Japanese carriers had a double hangar deck and put the workshops along the enclosed sides.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 15, 2021 20:17:42 GMT -6
As far as I can see, the only in-game advantage to armored sides of the hangar is to provide some protection from surface ships. My current carrier designs feature a 3" belt, 3" deck, 2" or 3" flight-deck armor and no side armor. The flight-deck armor didn't stop a 1600-lb bomb but proved reasonably resistant to the 500-600lb sizes. If I have this right - and if I don't I'm sure you fellows will set me right - American carriers had one hangar deck, with a fairly high-ceiling. I'm assuming the workshops and such were on the next deck down, since British and Japanese carriers had a double hangar deck and put the workshops along the enclosed sides. The Midway's hangar bay is 685 feet long, but the ship is 1001 feet long at the waterline. At the end of the hangar bay, is a tunnel, we called it the hell hole, that ran underneath some shops. From here equipment could be moved under a work shop, twin doors opened and the equipment could be raised into the workshop. Many of the electronic workshops were above the tunnel. The hangar bay height is 55 feet. To get to the shops, you had to walk to the corner of the hangar, walk up some stairs and through a hatch. The shops were located to the right. Behind them were living areas the restrooms, showers etc. Keep in mind that she was modified and some specifications have changed. www.midwaysailor.com/clintgriffin/index.html
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Post by stevethecat on Apr 17, 2021 16:53:36 GMT -6
This was a single 300kg bomb.
Never waste weight on any armour on a CV, it is broken.
And minutes later, notice how that is actually reduced from 7 fires.
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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 18, 2021 13:55:03 GMT -6
This was a single 300kg bomb.
Never waste weight on any armour on a CV, it is broken.
And minutes later, notice how that is actually reduced from 7 fires.
Where did this bomb hit? There's also no flight deck armor on this carrier, so your hanger isn't protected at all, just the lower machinery spaces.
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Post by christian on Apr 19, 2021 1:01:27 GMT -6
This was a single 300kg bomb.
Never waste weight on any armour on a CV, it is broken.
And minutes later, notice how that is actually reduced from 7 fires.
Where did this bomb hit? There's also no flight deck armor on this carrier, so your hanger isn't protected at all, just the lower machinery spaces. Probably irrelevant as even a dud bomb which hits or penetrates no crucial area can still set a carrier violently on fire here is my 5.5 inch flight deck carrier sinking to a 1500 lb dud bomb which does not appear to have hit any crucial area (or it would be listed) the carrier after approximately 40 minutes reached fire status 12 and was lost a few minutes later the carrier has crew level 2 which gives it significant bonuses to damage control Attachments:
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Post by janxol on Apr 19, 2021 5:40:30 GMT -6
Where did this bomb hit? There's also no flight deck armor on this carrier, so your hanger isn't protected at all, just the lower machinery spaces. Probably irrelevant as even a dud bomb which hits or penetrates no crucial area can still set a carrier violently on fire here is my 5.5 inch flight deck carrier sinking to a 1500 lb dud bomb which does not appear to have hit any crucial area (or it would be listed) the carrier after approximately 40 minutes reached fire status 12 and was lost a few minutes later the carrier has crew level 2 which gives it significant bonuses to damage control One thing I see working against you is that you had aircraft readied and it looks as if the dud bomb hit said aircraft in the hangar, setting off the fuel. I can see how fueled aircraft can be a problem for damage control, and I'm actually interested to see a hit on a carrier with no readied aircraft.
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Post by director on Apr 19, 2021 6:05:31 GMT -6
I can't see how a dud bomb, striking 5.5" of flight-deck armor with no penetration or special damage, set off a fire in readied aircraft which were in a hangar 'below' that armor. Even if the aircraft were on deck, wouldn't the protection keep the damage mostly confined above the hangar? There might actually be an explanation - see 'Taiho' for the intersection of bad luck, poor training and strange circumstances. But in an event as apparently random and strange as this, the game would have to give me more details of an explanation before I would buy it. This is clearly a CTRL-ALT-DEL moment.
It sounds like something out of a parody movie like 'Hot Shots'. Bomb hits and goes "THUNK... hssss." In the hangar a pipe running across the ceiling is knocked loose. A crewman flips a switch to run avgas through it, which cross-connects somehow to the fire sprinkler system, spraying avgas everywhere. It explodes just as Our Hero launches off the catapult...
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Post by captaintrek on Apr 19, 2021 6:58:56 GMT -6
I mean what you just described is pretty much exactly how carriers work in this game, Director. They can't control fires even when given every advantage, every second bomb hit causes a fire, CAP often takes HOURS longer to get into the air than enemy land-based air does, they refuse to sail in any direction other than into the wind, often delivering them straight to the enemy guns on a silver plate, and as I've mentioned, I once lost a carrier that was never once shot at to a random avgas explosion.
Edit: Also, ctrl-alt-deleting is for suckers. Save-editing a battle in the middle of the battle is much faster than fighting the entire battle again.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 19, 2021 7:04:54 GMT -6
I can't see how a dud bomb, striking 5.5" of flight-deck armor with no penetration or special damage, set off a fire in readied aircraft which were in a hangar 'below' that armor. Even if the aircraft were on deck, wouldn't the protection keep the damage mostly confined above the hangar? There might actually be an explanation - see 'Taiho' for the intersection of bad luck, poor training and strange circumstances. But in an event as apparently random and strange as this, the game would have to give me more details of an explanation before I would buy it. This is clearly a CTRL-ALT-DEL moment. It sounds like something out of a parody movie like 'Hot Shots'. Bomb hits and goes "THUNK... hssss." In the hangar a pipe running across the ceiling is knocked loose. A crewman flips a switch to run avgas through it, which cross-connects somehow to the fire sprinkler system, spraying avgas everywhere. It explodes just as Our Hero launches off the catapult... As you said, strange circumstances but maybe not so strange. If the bomb hit the deck, say near an elevator in service going down or up, it will expose the hangar to the explosion. It might have even hit the elevator with an aircraft loaded with fuel and ordnance. That would cause such an explosion. If the order was to launch half of the air wing, then the other half might be brought up on deck as a second wave with fuel and ordnance on board. If the bomb hit with that number of birds on deck, any explosion might cause secondary explosions. This could cause an explosion in the hangar deck easily. There many scenarios where this can happen. This is the reason that radar and search aircraft are so important. A carrier must have adequate warning to secure the hangar bay of ordnance, fuel etc. Keep in mind, that even with an armored deck, the lifts are not armored to keep them light, so with one forward and one aft, offset to maintain strength, there are at least two spot for a bomb to strike, penetrate into the hangar, and detonating ordnance, fully fueled aircraft and gasoline.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Apr 19, 2021 9:48:25 GMT -6
USN fleet carriers were hit by torpedoes or bombs in at least 25 separate incidents. Many of these ships were hit by mulitple bombs or torpedoes (I counted each battle during which a carrier was damaged or sunk as a single incident, regardless of the number of hits made against the ship. I did not look at light or escort carriers.)
Four American fleet carriers sank as a result of those hits. Most of the damaged ships required dock time to repair the damage, however a number of them (temporarily) returned to duty within a few hours, even after horrendous crew casualties and/or serious fires.
Of the 4 fleet carriers lost, only one can be fairly attributed to fire - the Lexington. The Yorktown was sunk by Japanese torpedoes from a submarine after being crippled by air attacks at Midway. It had been on fire but the fire had been controlled. The Wasp was sunk by submarine torpedoes that caused a magazine explosion. The Hornet survived multiple hits and a fire at Santa Cruz and was under tow when she was scuttled under threat of capture by the enemy.
Pretty much every carrier that was hit by bombs was also set afire. Several of these fires were serious enough that the carrier was knocked out of action more or less permanently, but other than the Lexington, none sunk as a result of fire.
It appears that, through a combination of mechanical improvements and crew training, American carriers were quite difficult to sink as a result of fire. Part of this might be due to the contemporary strategic situation. The ships hit in later battles were in a position where they could be rescued. Several American fleet carriers were crippled by fire but were able to be rescued because the Americans had control of the seas at the time. Had these ships been damaged during a relatively evenly matched carrier battle, it is quite likely they would have been scuttled.
Japanese carriers were much more likely to die from fire. This was apparently due to the inadequate Japanese damage control processes, lack of training and poor firefighting equipment. Fire was responsible for about 50% of the Japanese carrier losses that occurred at sea (discounting carriers lost in port in the last months of the war). The difference between the ultimate result of fires on Japanese carriers compared to American carriers implies that training and adequate equipment were instrumental in containing fire during WW2.
While we have a lot of anecdotal accounts of carriers being sunk by fire in RTW2, we don't have comparable figures for carriers that were hit, caught fire, and survived the battle. In RTW2, we all remember the tragic loss of a powerful carrier to fire, especially if that fire was caused by a seemingly minor hit, so those incidents loom much larger in our memories than those times when our carrier was hit, caught fire, and ultimately extinguished the fire. At this point I don't think that we have sufficient data to say conclusively that fires in RTW2 are any more deadly than they were in WW2.
However, I would like to see some mechanism in the game that would allow nations to _noticeably_ improve the firefighting ability of their carriers. I'm pretty sure that there are already features in the game that do this, but currently they seem inadequate to the task and their results are insufficiently communicated to the player.
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Post by captaintrek on Apr 19, 2021 10:55:06 GMT -6
Well I know this won't help much with comparing quantities of fires successfully snuffed with those that resulted in a sinking, jwsmith, but in my current campaign I just had a converted CVL get hit by a 600 lb dud bomb and get set on fire. Guess what? 20 minutes later the fire had its third "fire spreads" event, upon which it spread to the fueled aircraft (it didn't even start with an aircraft going up this time like it usually does) and burnt the ship down. This is the first hit any carrier has sustained this campaign, and it was actually from a zeppelin. I'm not as mad as I would normally be because this is also the first time I've seen a zeppelin high-level bomb hit anything.
Don't take this as gospel because it's possible I forgot to report some stuff in the running commentary I was giving to my friends, but it looks like in the campaign before last (previous campaign ended at 1925, so nothing to say there), I had two fires on board carriers as a result of a bomb hit, one that burned the carrier down and one that didn't.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 19, 2021 12:01:56 GMT -6
Well I know this won't help much with comparing quantities of fires successfully snuffed with those that resulted in a sinking, jwsmith, but in my current campaign I just had a converted CVL get hit by a 600 lb dud bomb and get set on fire. Guess what? 20 minutes later the fire had its third "fire spreads" event, upon which it spread to the fueled aircraft (it didn't even start with an aircraft going up this time like it usually does) and burnt the ship down. This is the first hit any carrier has sustained this campaign, and it was actually from a zeppelin. I'm not as mad as I would normally be because this is also the first time I've seen a zeppelin high-level bomb hit anything.Don't take this as gospel because it's possible I forgot to report some stuff in the running commentary I was giving to my friends, but it looks like in the campaign before last (previous campaign ended at 1925, so nothing to say there), I had two fires on board carriers as a result of a bomb hit, one that burned the carrier down and one that didn't. Good update and its consistent with historical carrier damage, in my opinion. Got hit by a zeppelin, are you kidding. You mean the zeppelin survived any air attacks? Not bad, but funny.
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Post by christian on Apr 19, 2021 12:09:55 GMT -6
USN fleet carriers were hit by torpedoes or bombs in at least 25 separate incidents. Many of these ships were hit by mulitple bombs or torpedoes (I counted each battle during which a carrier was damaged or sunk as a single incident, regardless of the number of hits made against the ship. I did not look at light or escort carriers.) Four American fleet carriers sank as a result of those hits. Most of the damaged ships required dock time to repair the damage, however a number of them (temporarily) returned to duty within a few hours, even after horrendous crew casualties and/or serious fires. Of the 4 fleet carriers lost, only one can be fairly attributed to fire - the Lexington. The Yorktown was sunk by Japanese torpedoes from a submarine after being crippled by air attacks at Midway. It had been on fire but the fire had been controlled. The Wasp was sunk by submarine torpedoes that caused a magazine explosion. The Hornet survived multiple hits and a fire at Santa Cruz and was under tow when she was scuttled under threat of capture by the enemy. Pretty much every carrier that was hit by bombs was also set afire. Several of these fires were serious enough that the carrier was knocked out of action more or less permanently, but other than the Lexington, none sunk as a result of fire. It appears that, through a combination of mechanical improvements and crew training, American carriers were quite difficult to sink as a result of fire. Part of this might be due to the contemporary strategic situation. The ships hit in later battles were in a position where they could be rescued. Several American fleet carriers were crippled by fire but were able to be rescued because the Americans had control of the seas at the time. Had these ships been damaged during a relatively evenly matched carrier battle, it is quite likely they would have been scuttled. Japanese carriers were much more likely to die from fire. This was apparently due to the inadequate Japanese damage control processes, lack of training and poor firefighting equipment. Fire was responsible for about 50% of the Japanese carrier losses that occurred at sea (discounting carriers lost in port in the last months of the war). The difference between the ultimate result of fires on Japanese carriers compared to American carriers implies that training and adequate equipment were instrumental in containing fire during WW2. While we have a lot of anecdotal accounts of carriers being sunk by fire in RTW2, we don't have comparable figures for carriers that were hit, caught fire, and survived the battle. In RTW2, we all remember the tragic loss of a powerful carrier to fire, especially if that fire was caused by a seemingly minor hit, so those incidents loom much larger in our memories than those times when our carrier was hit, caught fire, and ultimately extinguished the fire. At this point I don't think that we have sufficient data to say conclusively that fires in RTW2 are any more deadly than they were in WW2. However, I would like to see some mechanism in the game that would allow nations to _noticeably_ improve the firefighting ability of their carriers. I'm pretty sure that there are already features in the game that do this, but currently they seem inadequate to the task and their results are insufficiently communicated to the player. Specifically after the loss of Lexington they realized a large Firestarter and explosive hazard was the fuel lines used to refuel the aircraft these would slowly fill with avgas fumes and would explode when lit on fire or hit by a bomb this often meant a large fire or explosion was caused the Americans quickly found that if you purge the lines of avgas and fill them with co2 the lines cant fill with fumes and thus cant blow up The Japanese did not necessarily lack the damage control systems or technological equipment to fight fires in fact alot of their carriers had some quite extensive firefighting systems (ironically both the kaga and akagi did) the main problem was 3 things Lack of generalized damage control the Japanese used dedicated damage control teams and each sailor was only very very minimally taught in damage control where as every american sailor had to be able to conduct damage control Lack of proper purging of fuel lines this meant that when a Japanese carrier was hit it could often result in a fire from the fuel lines Enclosed hangar spaces which often meant the fires (if started) all happened under the flight deck which made them harder to control Akagi and kaga were hit and both of them had fumes in their lines and promptly had large fires start because of it which blew out most of the hangars (despite both of them not actually having alot of armed or fueled aircraft ready) in most cases American carriers in 1944 and 1945 could be saved even during catastrophic circumstances such as on franklin when it was hit and while its front fuel line system had been purged the rear one had not and promptly exploded igniting the 33 aircraft on its deck and hangar all of which were armed which caused the detonation of 13 tonnes of explosives along with 33 fully fueled aircraft worth of fuel yet despite the insane damage she was able to be saved with the firefighting help of several other ships The problem is there is no in game tech which helps reduce this and in addition to that a single fueled aircraft exploding acts like a 1500 lb HE bomb instead of actually just being a "minor" problem on deck Fires on the deck are not that scary and are very easy to control the major problem is hangar and internal fires
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 19, 2021 12:25:28 GMT -6
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Post by christian on Apr 19, 2021 12:57:36 GMT -6
To be a bit more specific (no idea why its colored)
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