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Post by poonthai on Jun 14, 2021 2:23:25 GMT -6
what's the benefit of multiple fire control (etc. rangefinder) on ship. Did it provide additional bonus ??
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Post by bshaftoe on Jun 14, 2021 4:03:51 GMT -6
I always put 3 for redundancy, so that if one is destroyed I still have fire control.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Jun 14, 2021 5:49:34 GMT -6
what's the benefit of multiple fire control (etc. rangefinder) on ship. Did it provide additional bonus ?? redundancy - if you lose 1 you have backup(s) |
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Post by rimbecano on Jun 14, 2021 8:11:51 GMT -6
I always put 3 for redundancy, so that if one is destroyed I still have fire control. I rarely put three on (except maybe to reserve weight for later upgrades and still get some benefit out of it, though I generally do that with more useful things), as I find that I rarely, if ever, have a ship lose two in one battle, but I almost always leave the default of two on. For destroyers and sometimes CLs, I'll drop redundant fire control in upgrades if there's just no way to get a critical upgrade on board within the weight limit (often director firing), as there I figure my redundancy is in number of ships: you're likely to outright lose a few destroyers in any major battle, so one or two more getting merely mission-killed isn't a huge problem, as long as your fleet has enough in the first place. |
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Post by Adseria on Jun 14, 2021 20:12:12 GMT -6
I always put 3 for redundancy, so that if one is destroyed I still have fire control. I rarely put three on (except maybe to reserve weight for later upgrades and still get some benefit out of it, though I generally do that with more useful things), as I find that I rarely, if ever, have a ship lose two in one battle, but I almost always leave the default of two on. For destroyers and sometimes CLs, I'll drop redundant fire control in upgrades if there's just no way to get a critical upgrade on board within the weight limit (often director firing), as there I figure my redundancy is in number of ships: you're likely to outright lose a few destroyers in any major battle, so one or two more getting merely mission-killed isn't a huge problem, as long as your fleet has enough in the first place. Same. If your ship's in a place where it's taking two fire control crits in one battle, you have bigger problems. Better to save the weight and get a couple of AA guns or something instead. |
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Post by wlbjork on Jun 15, 2021 6:54:49 GMT -6
what's the benefit of multiple fire control (etc. rangefinder) on ship. Did it provide additional bonus ?? You need 2 for maximum effect - if you check the accuracy portion of the ship card when firing, you'll see that there is a line for fire control, at the end of said line you see a brackets containing two numbers, as in "x of 2". Fitting a third gives some redundancy as a critical can destroy fire control systems but generally I'd say that is unlikely enough to make it cost ineffective. |
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Post by nimrod on Jun 15, 2021 9:56:42 GMT -6
what's the benefit of multiple fire control (etc. rangefinder) on ship. Did it provide additional bonus ?? You need 2 for maximum effect - if you check the accuracy portion of the ship card when firing, you'll see that there is a line for fire control, at the end of said line you see a brackets containing two numbers, as in "x of 2". I see a noticeable reduction in fire control (accuracy and sometimes even the ability to select enemy ships for torps and guns - nws-online.proboards.com/thread/5427/torpedo-targeting-inquiry) when the active FC units are one or none, there are no operational main guns (only using secondary/ tertiary battery) and or the bridge is hit.
Most of the time 2 active FC units work well enough, but I do pop a third on when I'm able... On smaller ships I'll sometimes go with earlier FC technology to get the third FC unit, or go with an extra main guns (or add ammo) as their are few things more frustrating than a DD or CL that's a few hundred yards away from a CV, BB or BC and the torpedo targeting box is blank... From a game perspective I think 2 FC units is valid, I just try to keep my sanity level as high as possible; even if its overkill. |
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Post by Adseria on Jun 15, 2021 10:52:00 GMT -6
what's the benefit of multiple fire control (etc. rangefinder) on ship. Did it provide additional bonus ?? You need 2 for maximum effect - if you check the accuracy portion of the ship card when firing, you'll see that there is a line for fire control, at the end of said line you see a brackets containing two numbers, as in "x of 2". Fitting a third gives some redundancy as a critical can destroy fire control systems but generally I'd say that is unlikely enough to make it cost ineffective. That's only telling you how many FCs you have. "x" is the number of undamaged ones, "of Y" is the total number. Having more than one FC is purely for redundancy. |
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Post by director on Jun 18, 2021 12:19:29 GMT -6
In real life the Italians used multiple range finders in WW2 to great effect, often getting the range very right very quickly (which advantage was nullified by the variance in shell manufacture).
Not exactly the same as fire control, and an advantage the game does not give us, but it was used.
For myself I always use two fire control positions on all ships down to CLs, with CLs of more than 6500 tons getting two and all smaller ships getting one.
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Post by Adseria on Jun 18, 2021 15:00:23 GMT -6
In real life the Italians used multiple range finders in WW2 to great effect, often getting the range very right very quickly (which advantage was nullified by the variance in shell manufacture). Not exactly the same as fire control, and an advantage the game does not give us, but it was used. For myself I always use two fire control positions on all ships down to CLs, with CLs of more than 6500 tons getting two and all smaller ships getting one. I absolutely agree that multiple FCs should have some advantage other than redundancy, but, for the moment, they don't. |
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Post by williammiller on Jun 19, 2021 18:13:26 GMT -6
I recall having a modifier in my early combat calculations that added a small bonus if you have multiple FC systems, but I think it did not make it into the game. Ill check and see if that can be changed.
Thanks.
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Post by legion0047 on Jun 22, 2021 5:33:05 GMT -6
Well, as the FC systems are probably primary in the main tower and a forward and rear one, having multiple systems that refine the solution for their turrets does allow for greater accuracy. While a bit more complicated on the implementation, this effect would of course be greater for a 200+ meter long battleship than on a 100 meter destroyer.
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Post by director on Jun 22, 2021 10:42:46 GMT -6
Yes, but as the Italians found out, there are limits to the accuracy you can achieve due to other (often unknowable) factors like wind aloft and downrange, humidity aloft, pitch and roll, shell manufacturing and uniformity, target vector changes while shell is in flight and so on and so on. The only way to achieve real accuracy is to enable the projectile to alter course and home in.
During the refit of the Iowas, the USN considered replacing the analog FC computers with newer digital equipment, only to conclude that the analog gear was accurate up to the limits of other factors - in other words, the FC equipment was accurate for all the factors they could account for and improving the FC gear would not improve accuracy.
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Post by nimrod on Jun 22, 2021 11:29:03 GMT -6
Yes, but as the Italians found out, there are limits to the accuracy you can achieve due to other (often unknowable) factors like wind aloft and downrange, humidity aloft, pitch and roll, shell manufacturing and uniformity, target vector changes while shell is in flight and so on and so on. The only way to achieve real accuracy is to enable the projectile to alter course and home in. During the refit of the Iowas, the USN considered replacing the analog FC computers with newer digital equipment, only to conclude that the analog gear was accurate up to the limits of other factors - in other words, the FC equipment was accurate for all the factors they could account for and improving the FC gear would not improve accuracy. No argument from me on the Iowa FC, and or all the other inflight affects on a shell. Iowa's had a radar based FC which also utilized data from a couple of sources, if my memory is correct.
I think thread respondents might be using range finder and fire control interchangeably in this discussion... A Fire Control team was usually provided range, speed and bearing info from a few different sources - optical range finders, radar, multiple binoculars, etc... Ships in WWII might have a few dedicated FC units / teams (surface and anti-air gunnery and torpedo), with the units providing backup to others as warranted / allowed. If you are under AC attack, you might be able to run some AC fire control through your surface gunnery FC team (torpedo bombers for example - Bismark firing main guns against String Bags). Modern FC is usually tied into a computer that interlinks missiles, guns, etc. with some countries running a manual FC concurrently to cross check for errors / backup in case computers go down.
In game if FC is referring to the number of Range Finders, than yes more should make a difference. For optically driven surface gunnery FC, the different locations that the Range Finders are located on a ship (with different angles, different vibrations) can make a difference. My understanding is that it was common on ships to have multiple optical rangefinders in order to take the average or throw out a reading that wasn't inline with the others... For example, in optimum conditions your main 9ft range finder might be able to accurately range within 5% consistently in good weather, while a 4ft range finders in the aft tower might only be accurate within 7%. When the provided ranges from multiple range finders are 1700, 1790 and 1900 yards (calibration issue, smoke, excess vibration at time of reading due to damage or ship running full speed or guns firing, human error in the heat of battle, etc.), than you would be wise to set your sights for around 1750 yards. With one range finder, your FC is stuck with the single range provided, two and you either split the difference or you discard one range; due to intuition from experience like sensing time of flight for incoming rounds.
If Fire Control is indeed referring to the actual FC units / teams - than the additional teams, while they could make a difference due to additional cross-checks / ensuring errors aren't being entered, probably shouldn't make much of a difference... A least I wouldn't think they would after late 1930's real world tech for the reasons Director noted.
I find it interesting that they added a radar to determine shell velocity in the 80's refit. Also the two primary FC units were kept separated for damage control purposes.
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