cvl
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Post by cvl on Jul 5, 2021 11:16:41 GMT -6
I hit upon an idea for more realistic treatment of a nation's shipbuilding industry that still remains abstract enough to be easy to implement.
It simply involves splitting dockyard size into two numbers.
One would be the nation's maximum capacity for a single ship. The other would be the nation's maximum total capacity.
For example, if Austro-Hungary has a dock size of 14k/200k, they can only build a large ship up to 14,000 tons standard displacement, while also only being able to build ships worth 200,000 tons standard displacement at any given time.
They are free to allocate that displacement any way they see fit, for example, 10 14,000 ton pre-dreadnought battleships, for 140,000 tons, and the remaining 60,000 tons taken up by destroyers at 500 tons a piece, etc. etc.
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Post by nimrod on Jul 5, 2021 12:11:37 GMT -6
Great idea, I totally agree!
Would add a bit of realism. I would think the "maximum per ship displacement" would rise by investing money as per the current system. While the "total shipbuilding capacity" might rise naturally, to simulate the growth in civilian yards, or with investment. Total shipbuilding capacity might even rise by taking territories (maybe value 4 or 5+); would help add "economic" value to taking a mature territory / colony.
Only thing that I might consider, would be putting a limit on how many large / maximum (max displacement minus 10% or 15%) size ships you could build at one time... Or limiting the number of ships above 10K or 20K to a moderate percentage of the total capacity... That's a whole other discussion though, and I don't mean to open that can of worms.
Great first post / suggestion CVL.
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cvl
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Post by cvl on Jul 5, 2021 12:21:44 GMT -6
Another method would be to have a system like this:
Max. Dockyard size = X
No. Of Shipbuilders = Y
Top 10% of Y can build 100% X
Top 20% can build 90% X
Top 40% can build 80% X
Top 70% can build 50% X
Top 100% can build 40% X
Obviously, these are just arbitrary numbers.
Thus, if A-H has 100 dockyards and a max. Dockyard size of 100K tons SD:
10 dockyards can work on ships up to 100,000 tons SD
10 dockyards can work on ships up to 90,000 tons SD
20 dockyards can work on ships up to 80,000 tons SD
30 dockyards can work on ships up to 50,000 tons SD
30 dockyards can work on ships up to 40,000 tons SD.
Improvements to dock size improve both X and Y.
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cvl
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Post by cvl on Jul 5, 2021 12:23:53 GMT -6
Great idea, I totally agree! Would add a bit of realism. I would think the "maximum per ship displacement" would rise by investing money as per the current system. While the "total shipbuilding capacity" might rise naturally, to simulate the growth in civilian yards, or with investment. Total shipbuilding capacity might even rise by taking territories (maybe value 4 or 5+); would help add "economic" value to taking a mature territory / colony. Only thing that I might consider, would be putting a limit on how many large / maximum (max displacement minus 10% or 15%) size ships you could build at one time... Or limiting the number of ships above 10K or 20K to a moderate percentage of the total capacity... That's a whole other discussion though, and I don't mean to open that can of worms. Great first post / suggestion CVL. Yeah, the idea was that the button to increase dock size would increase the max size per ship by a little bit, and the maximum total under construction by a bit more. |
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cvl
Junior Member
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Post by cvl on Jul 5, 2021 12:31:05 GMT -6
Another method would be to have a system like this: Max. Dockyard size = X No. Of Shipbuilders = Y Top 10% of Y can build 100% X Top 20% can build 90% X Top 40% can build 80% X Top 70% can build 50% X Top 100% can build 40% X Obviously, these are just arbitrary numbers. Thus, if A-H has 100 dockyards and a max. Dockyard size of 100K tons SD: 10 dockyards can work on ships up to 100,000 tons SD 10 dockyards can work on ships up to 90,000 tons SD 20 dockyards can work on ships up to 80,000 tons SD 30 dockyards can work on ships up to 50,000 tons SD 30 dockyards can work on ships up to 40,000 tons SD. Improvements to dock size improve both X and Y. Each dockyard, then, can only construct one ship at a given time, until a tech researched later which allows multiple shipyards to work on a single ship and then have it be assembled. (Slightly increases cost and time, but allows bigger ships to be constructed by the small dockyards. There are historical examples of multi dockyard construction like late-WWII U-Boats, which were made in pieces. And, as shipbuilding becomes more modern, it becomes feasible to use this method on ever larger ships. |
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Post by nimrod on Jul 5, 2021 17:11:00 GMT -6
Another method would be to have a system like this: Max. Dockyard size = X No. Of Shipbuilders = Y Top 10% of Y can build 100% X Top 20% can build 90% X Top 40% can build 80% X Top 70% can build 50% X Top 100% can build 40% X Obviously, these are just arbitrary numbers. Thus, if A-H has 100 dockyards and a max. Dockyard size of 100K tons SD: 10 dockyards can work on ships up to 100,000 tons SD 10 dockyards can work on ships up to 90,000 tons SD 20 dockyards can work on ships up to 80,000 tons SD 30 dockyards can work on ships up to 50,000 tons SD 30 dockyards can work on ships up to 40,000 tons SD. Improvements to dock size improve both X and Y. I like it and would be very content with this sort of implementation. I am interested in the views of others on this.
Personally, I've discounted this approach in my own mussing as a good number of the nations represented in the game had very limited slipway / dry-dock capabilities for large ships or generally weak shipbuilding infrastructure - Japan I think had three slipways that could handle the Yamato class (could be wrong, but three stands out in my memory). There was only one dry-dock in France that Germany could utilize with the Bismarck. Italy, Russia and AH had very limited slipways & dry-docks for nearly all ships. GB was repairing large ships in the USA during WWII due to shortages of suitable dry-docks and threat of German bombers; but GB had a large number of small shipyards that could turn out a good number Flowers... In a sentence, I'm not sure how one would craft the %'s to maintain some semblance of historical reality while maintaining enough options to create an alternate history...
I'm also not sure on the one shipyard = one ship being built. There is a difference between a slipway and dry-dock, what work is done at each, and a ship may see both before reaching operational service. If actual shipyard #'s were implemented it would allow for some interesting codeing / events - labor shortages at shipyards extend build times (more than 50% of build capacity being used), or shipyard adopts new techniques (given ship loses two months off of their construction time). Their are some coding issues with it though; what does one do with the 400 ton and under / converted KE's and AMC's - those are assumed to be re-purposed civilian ships.
I think the original idea could be reasonably implemented; read that as being implemented quickly with a low number of bugs while providing a significant improvement to the game. |
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Post by hawkeye on Jul 5, 2021 22:51:01 GMT -6
Or go the Aurora 4x route and have X number of shipyards, each with a maximum size and a number of slipways.
Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshaven, 3 slipways at 36,000 tons
Schichau Werft, 2 slipways at 20,000 tons
Bremer Vulcan Werft, 6 slipways up to 5,000 tons
and so on.
Maximum tonnage and number of slipways can be expanded individually and you'd assign shipbuilding tasks to individual yards.
Hey, one can dream, can't one?
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Post by mobeer on Jul 6, 2021 4:50:40 GMT -6
I have always disliked the way construction can go:
- ten destroyers for a year
- one battleship for 3 years
- ten destroyers for a year
- one battleship for 3 years
- etc
Then after 40 years a country build 10 high quality submarines with no prior experience.
I would have something like:
D large shipyards limited to X tons each
E medium shipyards limited to Y tons each
F small shipyards limited to Z tons each
G submarine shipyards limited to one submarine each
With
- a cost for each shipyard, reduced to 70% when not in use
- a cost to build shipyards
- a cost to expand a category, including a flat amount and an amount per year
- ability to scrap a yard
- small KE can be built outside these yards in wartime
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cvl
Junior Member
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Post by cvl on Jul 6, 2021 10:16:27 GMT -6
I have always disliked the way construction can go: - ten destroyers for a year - one battleship for 3 years - ten destroyers for a year - one battleship for 3 years - etc Then after 40 years a country build 10 high quality submarines with no prior experience. I would have something like: D large shipyards limited to X tons each E medium shipyards limited to Y tons each F small shipyards limited to Z tons each G submarine shipyards limited to one submarine each With - a cost for each shipyard, reduced to 70% when not in use - a cost to build shipyards - a cost to expand a category, including a flat amount and an amount per year - ability to scrap a yard - small KE can be built outside these yards in wartime I think that's another really good idea. However, I worry about the possible complexity that introducing maintenance costs for slipways, dockyards, etc. could present to the coder. |
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cvl
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Posts: 50
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Post by cvl on Jul 6, 2021 10:20:58 GMT -6
Or go the Aurora 4x route and have X number of shipyards, each with a maximum size and a number of slipways. Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshaven, 3 slipways at 36,000 tons Schichau Werft, 2 slipways at 20,000 tons Bremer Vulcan Werft, 6 slipways up to 5,000 tons and so on. Maximum tonnage and number of slipways can be expanded individually and you'd assign shipbuilding tasks to individual yards. Hey, one can dream, can't one? Yeah, that would be the ideal, and hopefully we get that. I just know that abstractions sometimes have to get made, so I started this thread to provide compromise ideas. |
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Post by nimrod on Jul 6, 2021 11:21:23 GMT -6
Or go the Aurora 4x route and have X number of shipyards, each with a maximum size and a number of slipways. Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshaven, 3 slipways at 36,000 tons Schichau Werft, 2 slipways at 20,000 tons Bremer Vulcan Werft, 6 slipways up to 5,000 tons and so on. Maximum tonnage and number of slipways can be expanded individually and you'd assign shipbuilding tasks to individual yards. Hey, one can dream, can't one? Yup, one can dream!
My dream is that they would open up the construction code for modding... I don't think that part of the code would have proprietary data / coding like the battle code or damage model. The game has two sets of players, those that want to micromanage and those that don't. Codeing / debugging is also a limiting factor for the developer... So having a few construction mods could make a lot of sense.
Outside of the modding dream, as CVL noted (and to put into my own words), anything enacted through official channels is going to be a compromise solution. I really like / think the first suggestion could be made to work in short order and be officially implemented.
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 6, 2021 13:46:28 GMT -6
I hit upon an idea for more realistic treatment of a nation's shipbuilding industry that still remains abstract enough to be easy to implement. It simply involves splitting dockyard size into two numbers. One would be the nation's maximum capacity for a single ship. The other would be the nation's maximum total capacity. For example, if Austro-Hungary has a dock size of 14k/200k, they can only build a large ship up to 14,000 tons standard displacement, while also only being able to build ships worth 200,000 tons standard displacement at any given time. They are free to allocate that displacement any way they see fit, for example, 10 14,000 ton pre-dreadnought battleships, for 140,000 tons, and the remaining 60,000 tons taken up by destroyers at 500 tons a piece, etc. etc. This is a good suggestion, and one relatively easy to implement. We will consider it for the expansion. Thanks! |
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