How am I supposed to use destroyers?

[silamon]

I created fast dds with torpedoes. Enemy has slow bb with no escort. AHah! I think, an easy torpedo run!

So I get my dds ahead of the enemy, turn in and close the distance. I have you now! So I thought. The dds proceed to do a squiggly pattern and seem to deliberately stay outside of torpedo range (currently 3800@30 and 8000@25) until I either break off the attack or they die to secondary fire. Fire torpedo button has never lit up for me a single time, in this battle or in others. The only way I have ever managed to get torpedoes out was to let the AI fire them and most often waste them.

What the heck am I doing wrong? Or is the AI really staying out of torpedo range on purpose to make it harder?

[hereticalhermit]

You need to be in Captain’s mode in settings (set before a battle begins) in order to manually fire torpedoes.

The squiggly thing is your DDs dodging the hail of incoming secondary fire.

Charging BBs in broad daylight for low speed torpedo spreads at 8,000 yd can be pretty suicidal for the destroyer men, plus the AI will successfully dodge about 90% of manually fired torpedos if you make an attack from one direction in daylight. (At least until you have triple+ mounts and can fire a really big spread) Make sure you use two squads of DDs coming in from two sides.

Usually best to hold the DDs in reserve for night action (if you are fighting heavy odds always pick nighttime and torpedo training. Actually, pretty sure those are the best two training options period.) That, or send them in after wounded ships that can no longer evade. Or use them to feint the enemy battle line and force a turn away to relive pressure.

[hawkeye]

I don't know what time-frame you are talking about but up until the mid-20s, my DDs are the no 1 capital ship killers in the game.
Now granted, I have vastly more DDs than the AI and I treat them as throw-away assets, but for every two or three DDs I lose, the AI loses a B/CA/BB/BC.

Before the first Dreadnoughts show up, my DDs go in so close, they can see the white in the enemy captain's eyes (collisions with B/CA are pretty common), day or night, doesn't matter - in fact, I _hate_ night engagements.

After the first Dreadnoughts show up, range tends to be a little longer, but 2 to 3000 yards are easily obtainable without losing half of your DD-force.

P.s. I never _ever_ launch torps on slow speed setting. If the target is not in range for fast torps, get closer!

[nimrod]

Aug 4, 2021 9:07:32 GMT -6 hawkeye said:

I don't know what time-frame you are talking about but up until the mid-20s, my DDs are the no 1 capital ship killers in the game.
Now granted, I have vastly more DDs than the AI and I treat them as throw-away assets, but for every two or three DDs I lose, the AI loses a B/CA/BB/BC.

Before the first Dreadnoughts show up, my DDs go in so close, they can see the white in the enemy captain's eyes (collisions with B/CA are pretty common), day or night, doesn't matter - in fact, I _hate_ night engagements.

After the first Dreadnoughts show up, range tends to be a little longer, but 2 to 3000 yards are easily obtainable without losing half of your DD-force.

P.s. I never _ever_ launch torps on slow speed setting. If the target is not in range for fast torps, get closer!

I'll second what Hawkeye wrote, even generally hating night engagements and launching torps on high speed setting. I tend to average closer to 3-4 DD per capital ship sunk between 1920-mid 1930's. Once the enemies get secondary directors and advanced directors the DD's become Swiss cheese very quickly.

I think hereticalhermit hit it on the head - you need to be in captains mode to manually fire torpedoes. One suggestion is that you can ripple fire torpedoes from a ship if it is in a formation with more than one ship; just select a ship in the formation to fire a torpedo that hasn't fired yet and use the arrows in the torpedo targeting box to select and fire a torp from a ship that has already fired. It helps a lot when the DDs or cruisers are in the midst of a battle line or convoy.

I only play in captains mode, I'll often set my desired escorts to AI control so that I'm not managing my CV or AV escorts. DD's accompanying the battle line I keep under my command.

I normally charge in from one direction, as the enemy BB / BC / CA / B often slow down as they turn and they definately lose accuracy when turning / or shooting over your DD's.  If my battle line is engaging than the DDs mainly act as sheep dogs (corralling) to the enemy capital ships. As the battle rages the DD's will then swing in and chase down and kill separated capital ships or they will pounce on the slow / wounded ones. If I need to retreat, the DD's can provide a smoke screen and make motions against the enemy capital ships / DD's to keep them at bay.

Last battle I had was in 1937 as Japan vs a British invasion fleet... Using the above tactics in a dusk-night-dawn battle (very limited AC usage by all parties), the British lost all their capital ships consisting of 5 BB and a BC along with a host of smaller ships and transports their lone CVL made it out without a scratch. Out of my starting 4 BC's, 2 were heavily damaged by enemy torpedoes from DDs and CLs, out of 3 CL's one was lost and one heavily damaged I also lost 5 DD with 2 DD heavily damaged; and out of 3 CVs I had one moderately and one lightly damaged CV due to the single enemy air attack from their CVL. Ripple firing of torpedoes was my biggest friend when night came and my DD squadrons were getting cut to pieces by the enemy BBs that were firing a turn or three before I could identify them.

[silamon]

So basically I have to play on captain mode to effectively use destroyers? How large a penalty does the reduced victory points end up amounting to? I was playing on rear admiral mode because I didn't want to lose too many points. Admittedly though it is pretty irritating having ships go back to ai control if they are out of sight of the main fleet. That made it practically impossible to do anything at night.

For fleet training I only had gunnery enabled. If I select torpedo training will that increase maintenance for ALL ships or just ones with torpedoes?

As for time frame, it is currently 1923 with 50% tech rate and slow aircraft research.

[jwsmith26]

Until CVs arrive I consider DDs my main fleet weapon. I play in Rear Admiral mode so I do not manually fire torpedoes but that isn't necessary if you handle your destroyers correctly. The earlier the date, the closer you need to approach. In the first few years after 1900 this means approaching to within 2,000 or less yards. At this early date light guns are quite inaccurate and you can approach without too many losses. And you should definitely expect losses, but destroyers are cheap while their weapon is devastatingly powerful.

There is always a delicate balance between the range and accuracy of light weapons and the range and accuracy of torpedoes. As the years pass the distance at which you can effectively launch torpedoes increases as torpedo technology improves, but so does the range and accuracy of light guns. You can win this battle of technologies by heavily investing in Torpedo tech and the Light forces tech. This allows torpedo-equipped ships to remain effective despite the continually increasing range and accuracy of light weapons.

From a tactical standpoint, if you are playing at Admiral level you have very few ways to control your destroyers and the AI is not great at handling your destroyers. I have play-tested destroyer behavior rather extensively using balanced forces on both sides in fleet exercises. When I controlled my own destroyers in Rear Admiral mode in these tests that took place from 1900 through 1920 my destroyers typically launched around 50% of their torpedoes because I aggressively pushed them into positions from which they are comfortable taking a shot. I generally get between 10% and 20% hits from those launched torpedoes. Most of these hits are scored against actively maneuvering enemy battleships - enough hits to swing the course of the battle. 

In these tests, using identical forces, when I let the AI control my destroyers, I find that my destroyers typically fire off fewer than 5% of their torpedoes and often achieve zero or perhaps one hit. My observation indicates that this difference is largely a result of AI controlled destroyers turning away from their torpedo run-in well before they come within effective torpedo range (which is generally less than one half of maximum torpedo range). The simulated crews of destroyers under AI control are simply not as brave or determined as they were historically, and they are far, far less brave than they are when under player control. 

If you are playing at Rear Admiral or Captain level you can enhance the chance that your destroyers will actually be able to achieve a launching solution by approaching the enemy ship from the front, generally at an angle of about 30% of the enemy's movement vector. For this reason, I often position my destroyers slightly ahead of my battle line flagship during the maneuvering leading up to the gunfire exchange so they can race ahead of the enemy line and then crash down on it from the front. Sending in destroyers from the middle of your battle line and targeting the middle of the enemy battle line often results in your destroyers chasing their targets from behind, a definite recipe for failure (though this can be a valid tactic to cause a break in the enemy battle line). If at all possible approaching from both the starboard and port sides simultaneously will improve your chances by limiting the maneuvers that the enemy force can take to avoid your torpedoes. Approaching from the front generally means that you will get just one shot before you and the enemy ship pass each other at high speed, so you want to maximize this opportunity. You'll want to remember that torpedoes are fired from the flank of your destroyers so when your ships come within effective torpedo range make sure you maneuver your destroyer division so that the destroyers present their flank to the enemy. At this point try to run in as straight a line as possible to give several destroyers a chance to launch their weapons.

Mass is also important - sending a single destroyer division of 4 ships is much less likely to succeed than sending in a true flotilla attack using 3 or 4 divisions. Using a mass attack will reduce your destroyer casualties as well as increasing the chance of a hit.

[nimrod]

Silamon,

I can't comment on how to play at Rear Admiral, as I've only played on Captains. jswsmith26 has some advice if you wish to play in that mode.

Captains mode has a 20% adjustment to the points and I don't think it matters all that much... I'm not quite sure how to write the following - so please forgive me if I confuse you.

The points as far as I can see are only relevant for peace negotiations (who's the victor and can dictate terms) and for determining your prestige gain or lose from a battle.

The game has been known to create a white peace even when the player has a massive point advantage see: nws-online.proboards.com/post/77560 for an example.

Prestige gain seems to be maxed at 2 points and I believe the prestige lose is likewise capped at 2, at least that's the most I've ever lost. In my last battle, mentioned above I got something like 28,000+ points and 2 prestige while Britain gained something like 2000 points. I personally find that having my ships generally do what I want them to do more than offsets the 20% points adjustment - I think I'll more than make up the 20% difference in points, save more ships, sink more enemy ships and otherwise have a better battle / game. But that's me personally, others seem to really like the Admiral modes.

I think Torpedo training results in more maintenance for all ships, but to offset ships that don't use torpedoes its maintenance % increase is less than gunnery. Torpedo training can be worthwhile, depending on the nation and play style. I think most players, and there are exceptions, consider gunnery training by the mid 20's to not be cost effective while night and or torpedo training is much more debated. Your slow tech rate, and usable technology list, could change the cost benefit analysis.

[jwsmith26]

I've play-tested Captain's mode, specifically with the intent of testing the manual launching of torpedoes. I played through several wars in that mode. It was an exhilarating feeling to be in complete control of every ship in my fleet. But I felt it gave me too much of an advantage over the AI. Of course, I feel that Rear Admiral mode gives you almost as much of an advantage. But I can't bring myself to fight in Admiral mode. I really enjoy fighting battles, but most of the fun I get from tactical maneuvers just disappears when there is so little to command. However, I do feel that the victory point reductions of 10% when playing in Rear Admiral mode and 20% when playing in Captain's mode do not adequately represent the advantage these modes confer. The penalties should probably be at least 20% and 30%. Truthfully, both of these modes provide a huge advantage to the player compared to Admiral mode, especially when dealing with destroyers.

By the way, I didn't find that manually launching torpedoes improved the hit performance of my destroyers. It still came down to lining up your division properly relative to the targeted ship. If you place your division correctly, the AI is quite capable of effectively handling the launching of torpedoes.

[nimrod]

Aug 4, 2021 13:02:08 GMT -6 jwsmith26 said:

I've play-tested Captain's mode, specifically with the intent of testing the manual launching of torpedoes. I played through several wars in that mode. It was an exhilarating feeling to be in complete control of every ship in my fleet. But I felt it gave me too much of an advantage over the AI. Of course, I feel that Rear Admiral mode gives you almost as much of an advantage. But I can't bring myself to fight in Admiral mode. I really enjoy fighting battles, but most of the fun I get from tactical maneuvers just disappears when there is so little to command. However, I do feel that the victory point reductions of 10% when playing in Rear Admiral mode and 20% when playing in Captain's mode do not adequately represent the advantage these modes confer. The penalties should probably be at least 20% and 30%. Truthfully, both of these modes provide a huge advantage to the player compared to Admiral mode, especially when dealing with destroyers.

By the way, I didn't find that manually launching torpedoes improved the hit performance of my destroyers. It still came down to lining up your division properly relative to the targeted ship. If you place your division correctly, the AI is quite capable of effectively handling the launching of torpedoes.

Well said! That's a lot better than how I put it.

Like you I find it exhilarating to command every ship, but I find it way too easy to thoroughly trash the AI once you figure out how it operates and how it builds; along with some exploits like ripple firing torpedoes. Way-to much advantage exists for the knowledgeable player, I even play with varied tech and historical budgets to place some limits and uncertainty in the game.

I think Captain's Mode even at 50% wouldn't be unduly harsh for very experienced players, but it would be absolutely brutal for new players. 30-40% would work pretty well in my mind for Captain's Mode.

Silamon,

I would suggest trying a few battles in captains mode to learn - admirals were captains first.

I'm kind of waiting on the DLC to graduate to Rear Admiral.

[ludovic]

I also consider DDs my main offensive ship before carriers. I only need slightly more than half the capital ships of the opponent, to lure them into remaining across from me in line while the destroyers circle around for the kill instead of running away while plinking my destroyers off one by one. My second favorite torpedo boat is the CA, because the opponent capital ships don't seem to be as likely to run away from them, and they can shrug off the secondary fire so the opponent needs to choose between shooting at an up close CA or a far away capital ship with the main guns.

[silamon]

I have had more success with them by not sending them on suicide runs as much. I did get slightly improved torps as well, and they seem to actually fire more often now. But there have been plenty of times still where I have destroyer or light cruiser right next to enemy ship, clearly within angles to fire torps, and they just don't. I don't really understand why they still do that.

I don't really want to use captains mode if I don't have to. It seems like it would be that extra edge that would make the game a lot less interesting. I agree with JW, fleet admiral would be boring to play because it would remove most of my ability to interact with the battle and captain mode would make it too much easier to abuse destroyers. I will just have to get better at figuring out when the ai will decide to fire torpedoes and when they won't.


image.prntscr.com/image/B1dyUqDMT1iJ5up3oAjI6g.png
An invasion battle against a superior force. Lost all the dds I had available but I sure gave Italy a pounding that time. I do believe I am getting better at it at least.

Thank you for the replies all.

[silamon]

Seriously it confuses me why the AI just doesnt fire torpedoes sometimes. I had a dd within 3000m of an enemy battlecruiser that had engine damage and was only making 15 knots. Destroyer had 4 double centerline torp launchers and 4000@33 speed torpedoes. DD sailed broadside on to the BC for a good 3 or 4 turns before the BC secondaries crippled it. My own battlecruisers were a good ways to the north and no other allied ships were nearby so its not like there was a danger of friendly fire. Why did the dds just decide not to fire torps?

[hereticalhermit]

Aug 4, 2021 20:59:41 GMT -6 silamon said:

Seriously it confuses me why the AI just doesnt fire torpedoes sometimes. I had a dd within 3000m of an enemy battlecruiser that had engine damage and was only making 15 knots. Destroyer had 4 double centerline torp launchers and 4000@33 speed torpedoes. DD sailed broadside on to the BC for a good 3 or 4 turns before the BC secondaries crippled it. My own battlecruisers were a good ways to the north and no other allied ships were nearby so its not like there was a danger of friendly fire. Why did the dds just decide not to fire torps?

While I understand your desire to continue playing on rear admiral mode for the additional challenge, it might be beneficial to try captain’s just to get a better idea of what makes for a viable torpedo solution. There are many, many times where it looks like ships are in position to launch, but the math says otherwise. DDs will often be hesitant to fire torps when merely broadside to an enemy going that fast (15 kn is still plenty to evade, and a significant difference to take into account when going broadside. Plus, the reports you get of speed in game are only accurate to within about 5 kn or so. That BB could have been going nearly 20. Chances are good you needed to fire so far ahead of him to hit you were out of arc.)

The VP difference is so negligible as to not be worth considering — as others have pointed out, VP is largely meaningless. The game will also not get automatically way easier; you only directly control the ships you want to control, so you can have an almost identical feel to RA mode while figuring out for yourself precisely what positions provide for a good firing solution. I know I had a similar issue — why do my DDs never launch torps???— then experimented in Captain’s mode until getting a better handle on how the mechanics work. Now I often have to order the ships to hold torpedo fire or the trigger happy AI will spend them all before getting into a really good position.

[dorn]

Aug 4, 2021 20:59:41 GMT -6 silamon said:

Seriously it confuses me why the AI just doesnt fire torpedoes sometimes. I had a dd within 3000m of an enemy battlecruiser that had engine damage and was only making 15 knots. Destroyer had 4 double centerline torp launchers and 4000@33 speed torpedoes. DD sailed broadside on to the BC for a good 3 or 4 turns before the BC secondaries crippled it. My own battlecruisers were a good ways to the north and no other allied ships were nearby so its not like there was a danger of friendly fire. Why did the dds just decide not to fire torps?

For your description the distance that torpedoes must run is about 3400.
However the speed can be higher, the course can be not exactly parallel. All this can make torpedo solution unavailable or at edge of range which makes hit very unlikely. Crew quality has some impact too.

All this can make torpedo runs at edge of range unsuccessful.

[nimrod]

Aug 4, 2021 18:21:14 GMT -6 silamon said:

But there have been plenty of times still where I have destroyer or light cruiser right next to enemy ship, clearly within angles to fire torps, and they just don't. I don't really understand why they still do that.

Seriously it confuses me why the AI just doesnt fire torpedoes sometimes. I had a dd within 3000m of an enemy battlecruiser that had engine damage and was only making 15 knots. Destroyer had 4 double centerline torp launchers and 4000@33 speed torpedoes. DD sailed broadside on to the BC for a good 3 or 4 turns before the BC secondaries crippled it. My own battlecruisers were a good ways to the north and no other allied ships were nearby so its not like there was a danger of friendly fire. Why did the dds just decide not to fire torps?

Silamon,

There are some underlying questions on the torpedo targeting code, Hawkeye, Maddog, myself and others have experienced the same thing that you report in captains mode. nws-online.proboards.com/thread/5427/torpedo-targeting-inquiry

If I had a solid answer or functional work around I would gladly tell you, but nothing came of my torpedo targeting inquiry / bug report that is linked to above. FYI - I haven't found Maddog's suggested work-around to function for me, it might work for you though...

My personal suspicion is that the techs that report ancillary benefits like, increased torpedo readiness with the "Improved power training for torpedo mounts" technology, actually impact what the ships can target and how good the firing solution angles are... Again that is a suspicion on my end... I don't know if that coding exist let alone is implemented and if implemented how much of an impact it has. My suspicion exists, because I just can't figure out what "increased torpedo readiness" would be other than a modifier to a die roll to determine if you can launch a torpedo - the die roll could easily manifest itself as being able to target any enemy ships (to mimic a jammed torpedo mounts - just like we have jammed turrets) or on an individual enemy ship basis (mimicking bad firing control inputs). I could be out to lunch here, but torpedo training could impact that "readiness" roll as well; again this is just hearsay and suspicion on my end.