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Post by dorn on Aug 5, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -6
Some time ago I did excel spreadsheet which calculates maximal distance for torpedo solution taking into considaration target speed, target course relative to firing ship etc. You can find it as appendix. There are several sheets: 1. INPUT - you enter technology year, target course (relative to firing ship) and target speed. It calculates maximum firing distance and several other things. 2. Speed change - i takes data from input and makes calculations for different speed.
3. Target heading change - it takes data from input and makes calculations based on different target course. You can run it, you will find quite interesting result that sometimes it is not easily visible that torpedo solution does not exist. But if you are playing RTW you need to consider that RTW takes all other things which real commander faced. So if torpedo solution exists it does not mean that ship will fire torpedoes. There can be a lot of things that can change that, as example crew quality, probability of hit at maximum range, difficulty to estimate target course and speed, weather and a lot of others.
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Post by nimrod on Aug 5, 2021 10:19:49 GMT -6
To reinforce the last couple of sentences that DOM wrote - if you play in captains mode and you keep clinking on a target ship that you have a manual torpedo solution for, you will get different angle numbers. Usually their is a 5-8 degree spread that can show up by clicking; but it does seem to vary on the range and torpedo tech.
These different angles show a wide range of what I call "acceptable to launch calculations" by the program. Some angles will obviously not hit (ship turning to starboard and the torpedo angle is along the port side of the ship) but the AI (friendly and enemy) may launch at those angles. I would re-suggest playing a battle (even a fleet exercise) or two in captains mode just to get a feel for how the program calculates acceptable torpedo angles you might pickup some insight into other battle mechanics as well.
Using the ripple fire exploit, I normally send my torpedoes at different angles so that I'm not sending my full load at (for example) 115 degrees but I'll send torps at 110 and 115 degrees. For me this greatly increases the chance of a hit and or multiple hits. It might take some practice and or the use of DOM's calculator to get a good handle of what can actually work in game.
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Post by golingarf on Aug 6, 2021 14:18:31 GMT -6
Seriously it confuses me why the AI just doesnt fire torpedoes sometimes. I had a dd within 3000m of an enemy battlecruiser that had engine damage and was only making 15 knots. Destroyer had 4 double centerline torp launchers and 4000@33 speed torpedoes. DD sailed broadside on to the BC for a good 3 or 4 turns before the BC secondaries crippled it. My own battlecruisers were a good ways to the north and no other allied ships were nearby so its not like there was a danger of friendly fire. Why did the dds just decide not to fire torps? They don't launch until a firing solution is calculated. When playing RTW1 in captain's mode, I found that they tended to miss if manually fired before the AI was ready. Also, it's generally not so good to launch torpedoes at anywhere near their maximum range; the distance you mention is probably too far.
I recall there is a "flotilla attack" order which makes all the destroyers perform torpedo runs, but it's probably best used at nightfall.
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Post by silamon on Aug 6, 2021 15:51:18 GMT -6
Seriously it confuses me why the AI just doesnt fire torpedoes sometimes. I had a dd within 3000m of an enemy battlecruiser that had engine damage and was only making 15 knots. Destroyer had 4 double centerline torp launchers and 4000@33 speed torpedoes. DD sailed broadside on to the BC for a good 3 or 4 turns before the BC secondaries crippled it. My own battlecruisers were a good ways to the north and no other allied ships were nearby so its not like there was a danger of friendly fire. Why did the dds just decide not to fire torps? They don't launch until a firing solution is calculated. When playing RTW1 in captain's mode, I found that they tended to miss if manually fired before the AI was ready. Also, it's generally not so good to launch torpedoes at anywhere near their maximum range; the distance you mention is probably too far.
I recall there is a "flotilla attack" order which makes all the destroyers perform torpedo runs, but it's probably best used at nightfall. Is that what flotilla attack does then? I did wonder about that when I saw it, never tried it though. I am still learning how best to use dds, they definitely seem to work well at finishing off a ship that reduced speed but I have yet to successfully get a torpedo run off against undamaged ships. I have been reluctant to do night training but the more I play it is starting to seem almost mandatory considering the number of times it has put me into nasty night battles. I had a "convoy attack" mission that put in almost my entire fleet in the area, including a couple battleships. The game forced my ships to sail right into the enemy formation at night before I could even give orders, lost one of the battleships and a heavy cruiser by the time I could get my ships away from the dds. That was not fun On that topic, someone mentioned that after a certain point gunnery training is no longer considered cost effective. I think they said around the 20s? since tech rate can be changed, roughly what techs make base accuracy level good enough? Maybe around the time you get Directors or would it be sooner?
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Post by golingarf on Aug 6, 2021 16:11:08 GMT -6
They don't launch until a firing solution is calculated. When playing RTW1 in captain's mode, I found that they tended to miss if manually fired before the AI was ready. Also, it's generally not so good to launch torpedoes at anywhere near their maximum range; the distance you mention is probably too far.
I recall there is a "flotilla attack" order which makes all the destroyers perform torpedo runs, but it's probably best used at nightfall. Is that what flotilla attack does then? I did wonder about that when I saw it, never tried it though. I am still learning how best to use dds, they definitely seem to work well at finishing off a ship that reduced speed but I have yet to successfully get a torpedo run off against undamaged ships. I have been reluctant to do night training but the more I play it is starting to seem almost mandatory considering the number of times it has put me into nasty night battles. I had a "convoy attack" mission that put in almost my entire fleet in the area, including a couple battleships. The game forced my ships to sail right into the enemy formation at night before I could even give orders, lost one of the battleships and a heavy cruiser by the time I could get my ships away from the dds. That was not fun On that topic, someone mentioned that after a certain point gunnery training is no longer considered cost effective. I think they said around the 20s? since tech rate can be changed, roughly what techs make base accuracy level good enough? Maybe around the time you get Directors or would it be sooner? 1. The usual method is to damage a ship first, and then kill it with torpedoes. Unless fighting at night, that is. In the latter case, you probably want to order the attacking ship not to open fire with guns, if that option is available, because that may cause the target to take evasive action.
2. I don't know. I have never used gunnery training, because night fighting and torpedo training are both too good to ever skip.
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Post by wlbjork on Aug 7, 2021 0:08:18 GMT -6
Early game torpedoes are very slow and short ranged, I only rate them as being able to finish a crippled ship.
Once you hit about 1920, torpedoes have a useful range and more over can mount them in useful numbers.
My training is night-fighting and gunnery up to about 1920 then night-fighting and torpedoes thereafter. Unless I'm playing Japan, then it's torpedo training all the way (for the pre-emptive strike).
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Post by microscop on Aug 7, 2021 2:40:09 GMT -6
Capitan mode dd micro is pathetic easy mode for people who want to abuse the game and enemy ai. Dds are not supposed to be your main anti ship weapon, go play wows if that's what you want. if you want more control build light cruisers to be dd leaders and or use flotilla atack. Microing Dds from God's view in real-time and overriding their survival instinct is dumb and unrealistic. Maby you should play ultimate admiral aka rtw ripoff for wows babies.
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Post by hawkeye on Aug 7, 2021 3:20:26 GMT -6
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Post by golingarf on Aug 7, 2021 8:41:40 GMT -6
Capitan mode dd micro is pathetic easy mode for people who want to abuse the game and enemy ai. Dds are not supposed to be your main anti ship weapon, go play wows if that's what you want. if you want more control build light cruisers to be dd leaders and or use flotilla atack. Microing Dds from God's view in real-time and overriding their survival instinct is dumb and unrealistic. Maby you should play ultimate admiral aka rtw ripoff for wows babies. I actually somewhat agree, but when I tried the higher difficulty levels I found that the AI's behavior was intolerable. After watching my AI controlled DD:s steam back and forth along the shoreline over and over and over again trying to gun down enemy coastal artillery, I do not think "survival instinct" explains their behavior. And for a dozen other reasons, I don't think the AI behavior is sensible enough to justify playing on a higher level. (e.g. Having an independent division get lost and run into an unfavorable gun duel once in a while makes sense and is historical and all that - but this seems to happen almost every time, so all you can use is scout or screen. And even then, ships which obviously shouldn't will expose themselves to enemy fire for no reason.) I'd rather compensate by giving the AI nations more resources.
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Post by nimrod on Aug 7, 2021 10:42:12 GMT -6
On that topic, someone mentioned that after a certain point gunnery training is no longer considered cost effective. I think they said around the 20s? since tech rate can be changed, roughly what techs make base accuracy level good enough? Maybe around the time you get Directors or would it be sooner? Silamon,
I can't give a solid one sentence response as a lot depends on play style, fleet size and the balance of power as well. The simplest answer I can give on technology is that: I usually stop gunnery training (if adopted) a little after I start installing secondary directors on the big guys; I certainly stop the training by the time I install secondary directors on CL and DD.
The long answer is that: the 20's was mainly a take-away for me from different discussions and Rvt's video. It isn't a hard or fast rule as you noted given slow technology or air-power development.
With standard technology rates, you start to see in the 1920's: the rise of air-power, better fire control units, accuracy going up due to "tech" (the video gets a little into the tech level affecting accuracy) and less smoke interface as more ships are using oil rather than coal. So in the 20's a lot of the big negative modifiers (like the base -10 tech and smoke modifiers) start to disappear or become much less impactful, big secondaries become smaller DP anti-air guns, and ship-design & battle dynamics undergo a transformation. I personally believe that when the transformation occurs is when gunnery training starts being cost-ineffective.
Edited to add: A big part of the transformation is also from the AI starting to field a significant number of subs along with better damage control technologies and larger ship displacements. Damage control advances and larger displacements result in ships that take much more damage before sinking, so the battles start having a good number of disengaging damaged ships that if built a decade earlier would have sunk. These disengaged ships become easy prey for enemy aircraft or larger DDs if they are un-escorted... So between the rise of the submarine and the need to protect disengaging ships from enemy AC and DD. So for me the transformation generally occurs when escorts (be they AAA or ASW of the DD, KE or CL variant) become the hot commodity.
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Post by gurudennis on Aug 7, 2021 11:17:26 GMT -6
On the slightly off-topic subject of fleet training, I feel the need to point out that from my perspective none of it comes close to being cost-effective. It seems unwise to keep any significant portions of your fleet on active duty (aside from minimal colonial stations) in peace time. Putting your entire home fleet in reserve is a must because it tends to free up enough funds to build more ships. This is of course mutually exclusive with training that drains even more funds and more or less requires AF status. In other words, the opportunity cost of training is prohibitively high and can easily mean the difference between building a new dreadnought or two on the one side, or not being able to afford it on the other. The choice when put this way couldn't be any clearer.
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Post by nimrod on Aug 7, 2021 12:00:28 GMT -6
On the slightly off-topic subject of fleet training, I feel the need to point out that from my perspective none of it comes close to being cost-effective. It seems unwise to keep any significant portions of your fleet on active duty (aside from minimal colonial stations) in peace time. Putting your entire home fleet in reserve is a must because it tends to free up enough funds to build more ships. This is of course mutually exclusive with training that drains even more funds and more or less requires AF status. In other words, the opportunity cost of training is prohibitively high and can easily mean the difference between building a new dreadnought or two on the one side, or not being able to afford it on the other. The choice when put this way couldn't be any clearer. Thank you for bringing this up. They are valid points and definitely how I play the smaller nations like AH, Italy and Japan.
When playing Germany or larger, I will say that I see sufficient benefits to training to warrant its adoption in the early game when playing on the larger fleet sizes.
I'm not sure what you mean by "...and more or less requires AF status.". I'll often have training going with vast majority of my ships in RF and some in MB status. When I've done the math, it is generally cheaper to RF and MB the fleet with a training doctrine going than to keep the fleet in AF status. I usually don't go over 2 years without a war (I generally raise tensions when able), so early game, training is an interesting way of splitting the difference of cost to battle performance.
Also, early game there is a period of time that I don't want to build a bunch of cheap, easy to kill and limited longevity ships in the fleet (that magic time frame where you know that newly built ships will need significant upgrades or scrapped in a few years). Normally, I'll have a couple of B and CA and call it a day until I get TP 1 or I order from a foreign yard to get a tech bonus. Once I'm building functionally long lasting ships, I'm done with training. I want and need every ship! Edited my post above to reflect this.
Silamon,
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Post by ludovic on Aug 7, 2021 13:34:57 GMT -6
I only train when I have nothing else to spend the money on, which is usually in the beginning of the game when I am waiting for good tech and I don't want my cash hoard to be yoinked away. Only occasionally later, on the weird occasions when war threatens and I have plenty of DDs and subs in the queue, and making new cruisers and capital ships would not have a quick enough payoff window.
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Post by ludovic on Aug 7, 2021 14:34:42 GMT -6
Capitan mode dd micro is pathetic easy mode for people who want to abuse the game and enemy ai. Dds are not supposed to be your main anti ship weapon, go play wows if that's what you want. if you want more control build light cruisers to be dd leaders and or use flotilla atack. Microing Dds from God's view in real-time and overriding their survival instinct is dumb and unrealistic. Maby you should play ultimate admiral aka rtw ripoff for wows babies. I actually somewhat agree, but when I tried the higher difficulty levels I found that the AI's behavior was intolerable. After watching my AI controlled DD:s steam back and forth along the shoreline over and over and over again trying to gun down enemy coastal artillery, I do not think "survival instinct" explains their behavior. And for a dozen other reasons, I don't think the AI behavior is sensible enough to justify playing on a higher level. (e.g. Having an independent division get lost and run into an unfavorable gun duel once in a while makes sense and is historical and all that - but this seems to happen almost every time, so all you can use is scout or screen. And even then, ships which obviously shouldn't will expose themselves to enemy fire for no reason.) I'd rather compensate by giving the AI nations more resources. My bugbear that made me switch to Captain's mode is the great survival instinct shown by badly damaged ships that are ordered to limp back to port. I could see the following happen in descending order of probability 1) They do try to slowly go back to port due to their battle damage, 2) They don't get the order for some reason and continue to fight, 3) They do get the order but decide to fight anyway. What is least likely to happen, but which happens all the time outside of Captain's mode, is 4) they make it halfway to port and then suddenly steam back toward the battle at max speed and sink themselves.
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Post by gurudennis on Aug 7, 2021 15:19:43 GMT -6
Thank you for bringing this up. They are valid points and definitely how I play the smaller nations like AH, Italy and Japan.
When playing Germany or larger, I will say that I see sufficient benefits to training to warrant its adoption in the early game when playing on the larger fleet sizes.
I'm not sure what you mean by "...and more or less requires AF status.". I'll often have training going with vast majority of my ships in RF and some in MB status. When I've done the math, it is generally cheaper to RF and MB the fleet with a training doctrine going than to keep the fleet in AF status. I usually don't go over 2 years without a war (I generally raise tensions when able), so early game, training is an interesting way of splitting the difference of cost to battle performance.
Also, early game there is a period of time that I don't want to build a bunch of cheap, easy to kill and limited longevity ships in the fleet (that magic time frame where you know that newly built ships will need significant upgrades or scrapped in a few years). Normally, I'll have a couple of B and CA and call it a day until I get TP 1 or I order from a foreign yard to get a tech bonus. Once I'm building functionally long lasting ships, I'm done with training. I want and need every ship! Edited my post above to reflect this.
Silamon,
Interesting point about training in the pre-dreadnought era, thanks. Regarding training in AF versus RF/MB, I was under the impression that ships in the latter group don't benefit much from training due to low crew quality overall. I may well be wrong. Keeping only a small part of the fleet in AF may help, but then I only do so for modern ships with Elite status (usually a lucky CA or two).
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