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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 6, 2021 13:09:52 GMT -6
We know that Otto Von Bismarck was against a large German Fleet. He believed, correctly in my eyes, in the Germans becoming a land power. It makes sense when you examine their geography. They were in the center of Europe.
Now, he got into conflict with Kaiser Wilhelm because the Kaiser was a fleet man, he loved ships. Well the end result was that Bismarck was dismissed and he died in 1898. With the Kaiser winning the conflict between the two, the German's now began to build the High Seas Fleet. One problem was that they did not have the resources to build a big fleet to challenge the English which was exactly what Bismarck was trying not to do; challenge the British. So, because of the excessive allocation of funds to the fleet, the German Army paid a price. This price became a reality in August to November 1914 with the failure of the Schlieffen Plan. Mostly due to lack of funds and resources.
Ok, that's real history. Now to my counterfactual idea. Why not play an RTW2 game as Germany, with the virtual idea of Bismarck. This would mean building a coastal navy and maybe more submarines.
So, I am asking for some suggestions before I start this new game with Bismarck's emphasis on German land Power. Any ideas on strategy, ship types. One problem is range. Coastal ships did not have a range greater than about 4800 NM. In the game, is the short, or medium.
I am open to ideas gents.
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Post by wlbjork on Oct 6, 2021 15:45:55 GMT -6
German colonial possessions will require some medium-long range ships, but you could limit yourself to cruisers to handle those.
For the remainder, perhaps forfeit BBs and BCs whilst limiting yourself to Bs? Low Freeboard, Short Range and Cramped Accommodation all emphasise that the ship is intended to operate close to the coast.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 6, 2021 15:48:51 GMT -6
German colonial possessions will require some medium-long range ships, but you could limit yourself to cruisers to handle those. For the remainder, perhaps forfeit BBs and BCs whilst limiting yourself to Bs? Low Freeboard, Short Range and Cramped Accommodation all emphasise that the ship is intended to operate close to the coast. Good suggestions and maybe I'll try them in my current game. I have forfeited BB's, pre-dreadnoughts and BC's. I just won a war with Italy via raiders etc. I'll let you know how it works. Thanks. Update: Here is my first attempt using your suggestions:
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 6, 2021 19:14:22 GMT -6
Here is my fleet as of November 1922. This fleet has defeated the Japanese, Russians and just now, the French, decisively. Its really strange. For the French, they did not fight eight battles in a row and only actually fought two, I won both of those. Its just weird that a coastal fleet could do that much damage.
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Post by dohboy on Oct 6, 2021 19:34:57 GMT -6
Not a very entertaining strategy for RTW2 in my opinion. I agree with your premise though, they should have concentrated on being a continental power.
I don't even honestly think the u-boats were that beneficial to them, the U.S. might have acted very differently in WW1 without them. What might have happened when Russia collapsed and published the secret treaties if we hadn't declared war already? Neutrality seems a pretty fair bet, possibly a severe push to end the blockade. Maybe cutting of the loans.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 6, 2021 19:49:00 GMT -6
Not a very entertaining strategy for RTW2 in my opinion. I agree with your premise though, they should have concentrated on being a continental power. I don't even honestly think the u-boats were that beneficial to them, the U.S. might have acted very differently in WW1 without them. What might have happened when Russia collapsed and published the secret treaties if we hadn't declared war already? Neutrality seems a pretty fair bet, possibly a severe push to end the blockade. Maybe cutting of the loans. If you read the books including the Life of Bismarck, the people who followed him had no clue about geopolitics. He understood the German position better than those who followed him. He did not feel the German's should try to take over the world, he understood the German problems of geography better than the rest. As to whether the U-boats were beneficial to them, it might have given them a fighting chance to stop the war before it wrecked their economy and caused a revolution. Von Moltke the Elder predicted the type of war that the Great War would be, no one listened.
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Post by gurudennis on Oct 6, 2021 19:57:39 GMT -6
Continental powers tend to have one thing in common and that is: they fail to live up to their potential. From Sparta and Persia to Napoleon's France, from Imperial Russia to Germany in the 20th century, this is a pattern that keeps repeating. The economic benefits of maritime trade (and the crippling effect of the lack thereof) are a significant factor in the strength of nations. Not the only one, but a huge one.
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Post by dohboy on Oct 6, 2021 20:05:23 GMT -6
Continental powers tend to have one thing in common and that is: they fail to live up to their potential. From Sparta and Persia to Napoleon's France, from Imperial Russia to Germany in the 20th century, this is a pattern that keeps repeating. The economic benefits of maritime trade (and the crippling effect of the lack thereof) are a significant factor in the strength of nations. Not the only one, but a huge one. Napoleon's France didn't live up to their potential? They had all of Europe declare war on them when they were in the midst of a civil war, and they proceeded to kick all their arses across the continent. Until Moscow...
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Post by gurudennis on Oct 6, 2021 20:18:41 GMT -6
Continental powers tend to have one thing in common and that is: they fail to live up to their potential. From Sparta and Persia to Napoleon's France, from Imperial Russia to Germany in the 20th century, this is a pattern that keeps repeating. The economic benefits of maritime trade (and the crippling effect of the lack thereof) are a significant factor in the strength of nations. Not the only one, but a huge one. Napoleon's France didn't live up to their potential? They had all of Europe declare war on them when they were in the midst of a civil war, and they proceeded to kick all their arses across the continent. Until Moscow... Don't want to derail the discussion here, but it was not just Russia but also Spain that defeated Napoleon. The latter as a direct consequence of the British regional dominance, and likely responsible for the lack of a "second wind" in the East. I personally consider Napoleonic France to have had much greater potential than it ended up achieving, considering how it failed to outlive Napoleon himself (later imperial experiments aside). In large part due to the continental blockade and the invincibility of Britain.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 6, 2021 21:04:44 GMT -6
Napoleon's France didn't live up to their potential? They had all of Europe declare war on them when they were in the midst of a civil war, and they proceeded to kick all their arses across the continent. Until Moscow... Don't want to derail the discussion here, but it was not just Russia but also Spain that defeated Napoleon. The latter as a direct consequence of the British regional dominance, and likely responsible for the lack of a "second wind" in the East. I personally consider Napoleonic France to have had much greater potential than it ended up achieving, considering how it failed to outlive Napoleon himself (later imperial experiments aside). In large part due to the continental blockade and the invincibility of Britain. You are correct. In fact, it was the years of fighting against the British under Arthur Wellesley, later the Duke of Wellington, who was protecting Portugal and campaigning against the Grand Armee. Even though the French consistently won the battles in Spain, it was attritional. It drained the French Army. According to what I've read, Napoleon called it the "Spanish Ulcer". Personally, I believe the Russian Campaign by Napoleon, and later Hitler were both caused by victory disease. Neither had an thoughts that they could be beaten, but geography accomplished that easily.
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Post by cv10 on Oct 6, 2021 22:57:53 GMT -6
This is an interesting idea and I have a few suggestions:
1. The Navy should generally select whichever option lowers tension or, at least, raises it the least. Given that the Navy is a defensive force, I think that it would chart a less bellicose course.
2. Emphasize torpedo boats and destroyers.
3. I would not fully rule out dreadnoughts. Russia and France will have them, and I think you could make a case for a modest squadron of dreadnoughts (provided that they are not too expensive or large in displacement). A small squadron (4-5 at most) would deter the Russians from operating in the southern Baltic. You could restrict yourself to half the number of Russia, and add additional rules (must be kept either in reserve or mothball during peace).
4. Short range and cramped crew quarters for most of your home fleet ships. I would not require the use of low freeboard, or at least I would not require it after a certain date.
5. If you have a submarine fleet, I'd say that it should largely be coastal submarines and operate on a fleet support doctrine.
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Post by wlbjork on Oct 7, 2021 0:53:14 GMT -6
Hmm, that is actually a point I hadn't considered. I understand it can get quite rough in the Baltic to say that it's technically sheltered, so low freeboard could actually be a bad thing.
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Post by vonfriedman on Oct 7, 2021 1:44:07 GMT -6
In this "Otto von Bismarck" approach I see a problem. With a small fleet, perhaps even as far as U-Boote are concerned (not to irritate the UK), the resources that the game makes available to Germany would be underutilized. A game expansion to strategic land and air warfare would therefore be necessary but I already see the hair standing on end on the head of the NWS team.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 7, 2021 6:42:32 GMT -6
This is an interesting idea and I have a few suggestions: 1. The Navy should generally select whichever option lowers tension or, at least, raises it the least. Given that the Navy is a defensive force, I think that it would chart a less bellicose course. 2. Emphasize torpedo boats and destroyers. 3. I would not fully rule out dreadnoughts. Russia and France will have them, and I think you could make a case for a modest squadron of dreadnoughts (provided that they are not too expensive or large in displacement). A small squadron (4-5 at most) would deter the Russians from operating in the southern Baltic. You could restrict yourself to half the number of Russia, and add additional rules (must be kept either in reserve or mothball during peace). 4. Short range and cramped crew quarters for most of your home fleet ships. I would not require the use of low freeboard, or at least I would not require it after a certain date. 5. If you have a submarine fleet, I'd say that it should largely be coastal submarines and operate on a fleet support doctrine. Good suggestions. I didn't like building a ship with a low freeboard, my next coastal ship was going to have a normal freeboard. Thanks, these are great.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 7, 2021 6:43:27 GMT -6
In this "Otto von Bismarck" approach I see a problem. With a small fleet, perhaps even as far as U-Boote are concerned (not to irritate the UK), the resources that the game makes available to Germany would be underutilized. A game expansion to strategic land and air warfare would therefore be necessary but I already see the hair standing on end on the head of the NWS team. Maybe, but I have already won three wars against my main threats, so its working... to a certain extent.
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