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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 7, 2021 7:04:39 GMT -6
Based on the suggestions from all of you, here is my latest design for a coastal warship; the Prince Adalbert. I am treating these large warships as mobile coastal forts.
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Post by TheOtherPoster on Oct 7, 2021 7:14:04 GMT -6
As you've mentioned, the idea behind a German navy on the lines thought by Bismarck was to keep more resources in the army (i.e. giving less to he navy). So if you want to play that way you should have a smaller budget than the one the game gives you. Germany's budget in the game is very high. You will need to reduce your base resources.
About coastal battleships I would think of the Odin and Siegfried coastal battleships. But in RTW2 it's difficult to make those designs effective in battle (AI would probably pair them against enemy 1st class Bs). Anyway, coastal battleships were probably never a good idea in real life. I would dispense with Bs altogether or build just a very small number of short range 1st class ones.
I guess you would be following the Jeune Ecole strategy: using cruisers as raiders (plus subs when they become available) to destroy the enemy's merchant fleet. Also CAs could be employed in lightning strikes on the enemy coast. Maybe later in the game BCs and CVLs would join CAs both as raiders and on coastal attacks.
At the same time, you would need to protect your own coast and for that you should invest on cruisers, DDs, subs, mines, and coastal artillery (plus aircraft later on when available).
In general not that a very different strategy from the one carried out by the German navy after 1916 and in WWII)
I myself have never played such a game, I'm not sure if it is a wining strategy in RTW2 but it is worth trying.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 7, 2021 7:38:24 GMT -6
As you've mentioned, the idea behind a German navy on the lines thought by Bismarck was to keep more resources in the army (i.e. giving less to he navy). So if you want to play that way you should have a smaller budget than the one the game gives you. Germany's budget in the game is very high. You will need to reduce your base resources.
About coastal battleships I would think of the Odin and Siegfried coastal battleships. But in RTW2 it's difficult to make those designs effective in battle (AI would probably pair them against enemy 1st class Bs). Anyway, coastal battleships were probably never a good idea in real life. I would dispense with Bs altogether or build just a very small number of short range 1st class ones.
I guess you would be following the Jeune Ecole strategy: using cruisers as raiders (plus subs when they become available) to destroy the enemy's merchant fleet. Also CAs could be employed in lightning strikes on the enemy coast. Maybe later in the game BCs and CVLs would join CAs both as raiders and on coastal attacks.
At the same time, you would need to protect your own coast and for that you should invest on cruisers, DDs, subs, mines, and coastal artillery (plus aircraft later on when available).
In general not that a very different strategy from the one carried out by the German navy after 1916 and in WWII)
I myself have never played such a game, I'm not sure if it is a wining strategy in RTW2 but it is worth trying.
Good observations, I am playing a Jeune Ecole strategy and I am focusing light cruisers and destroyers with an emphasis on torpedoes in research and training. It is the strategy of the German Fleet of 1939 although there was a Z fleet projected but never built. I have played this type of strategy in my games as Japan and have never lost a war. So far, as mentioned, I've beaten Russia, Italy and France handily with this strategy. Try it, but it is very different. Think of it this way, you are an admiral in the Naval War College and you are gaming different strategies for your navy. This is a game and this is the way I play it. I could care less about prestige, for an admiral it is meaningless. Victory and success in my strategy is the most important concept in my games.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 7, 2021 7:39:11 GMT -6
Here is another design in study now, being built in the USA.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 8, 2021 8:59:08 GMT -6
I've decided based on my study of geopolitics and geography that the following nations can use a coastal fleet to their advantage. Here is my list:
Coastal Navy Germany Italy Austria-Hungary China- Maybe
Here is the list of nations that need a blue water fleet. But could build a small coastal fleet as an add-on. Great Britain USA Japan France.
This is for the game, not actual history. In the game, for the second list you will need more funding so IMHO you have to use a larger fleet, not a smaller one. I am going to test this with Japan today, time permitting. It goes without saying, that for the second list, those coastal ships would have to be used as trade protection or if a battle is announced by the AI, refuse it if only your coastal fleet is available. I have not worked out the details. Suggestions and ideas are always needed and wanted.
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Post by brygun on Oct 9, 2021 12:49:22 GMT -6
Philosophy:
The Kaiser was family Victoria and grew up exposed to the ideas of a navy. Doesn't mean wrong and in some ways right.
Germany has something like 80% land borders making armies for survival very important and only 20% sea. That is survival defense thinking. To be a world power it was quickly becoming known that resources of use were around the world. That does require ships to bring it in and thus a navy to protect them.
The coal era ships needed to refuel. Refueling by "coaling" was a hideous task of moving hundreds of tons of coal by either gravity chutes or quite often by the sailors carrying the sacks or shovelling. This was a time consuming tasks. Oil ships can use pipes and pumps at dock and later with at sea refuelling far easier than the coal.
The range for coal era ships was also an issue. Having colonies meant having coaling stations. Without those the fleets could be unable to move or crawling at minimal speeds or possibly even getting interred by being fuel forced into a neutral port.
The moment you want to have a resource colony far away you now also need the coaling stations along the way to get there.
For Rule the Waves 2 this leads my early game strategy to fighting wars to get at least one colony in the different sea zones. Then that represents my coaling stations. In game it means my raiders have a choice of home port to snuggle in if there are fuel shortages, mechanical breakdown, mine hits, torpedo hits or damage from tactical battles.
Economic relevance in fighting with peer level opponents, Germany fighting land neigbhours, is a lot tougher than influencing or conquering below peer colonies. The amount of militar power for the colonies leads to things like the importance of river boats in Africa vs 20,000 ton capital ships.
Expanding your resources by conquering neighbours can happen but this game doesnt really trade local territories. If you win a war and don't take all the points in colonies you would get an economic benefit. This could be used to simulate getting a more continental approach to Germany.
If your neighbours have colonies they get resources, banana or oil, that you never will. That will leave you behind in economic development and in prestige. This was part of the challenge.
>>>>
You always need to defend your home waters.
If nothing else you need to make sure your home waters don't get blockaded. Otherwise you can lose the war from the starvation of population.
Thus you can always have some of your fleet with short range! Accommodation narrowing is possible was well.
A month or so ago on the forum another poster (name not recalled) brought up about using tiny short range destroyers. Ive found 600 to 700 ton destroyers with short range are viable. The use is to put them in the homewaters. Also they take ~9 months to build while larger DDs are ~12 months. Once a war start a half short and half medium range DD covers alot of needs. The need for DDs in distant water is only part of the concern so the cheaper little ones are viable.
By extension you could look at half or 2/3 of your capital fleet being meant for home waters.
The cost savings of short range varies. In the coal era its pretty big. In the oil and later diesel eras the difference between short and medium range is often only a few hundred tons of building. Long range though is always a major design choice for the needed tonnage.
>>>>
The colonial part of the fleet
Since some of the fleet can be short range some of it will be needed for medium or long range. The ships are the ones to be used for Colonial work. This is needed to stop the sudden invasions for unguard colonies or to win battles where invasions are taking place. How many you need is a variable question with no clear answer.
>>>
Invasions take local superiority and clear home waters
It will also be affected by if you want to start colonial invasions in which case you need local superiority in that distant sea zone while still making sure your home waters aren't blockaded. If he home waters are blockaded you aren't allowed to start an invasion.
>>>
Actionable items:
= Short range for half to 2/3 of your capital ships = Short range for half of the DDs = Take less colonies when winning a war = When you do take a colony focus on getting new sea zones to have your coaling stations and "exotic" trade goods
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Post by brygun on Oct 9, 2021 13:14:58 GMT -6
In terms of building raiders for Rule the Waves its submarines and/or cheap surface raiders. Thats talked about in detail here: nws-online.proboards.com/thread/6105/raiders-ravaging-reliably-small-surface>>>> For your land centric Germany game having 2,000 ish ton CLR (cruiser light raider) in large numbers like 20-30 keeps with the idea of intefering with distant seas. Those need medium range fuel (long range wont fit in that size). ID suggest an early fleet of something like 4+ B with short range for home defense 2-3 B or large gun CA with medium range for power projection 1-2 fast CA/CL for intercepting enemy raiders 4-8 CL for anti destroyer duty 20+ cheap CLR for merchant raiding 50/50 split on DD for home water short range and flexible medium range boats AMCs can be added if you want more merchant raiding during wartime.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 9, 2021 18:01:10 GMT -6
Philosophy: The Kaiser was family Victoria and grew up exposed to the ideas of a navy. Doesn't mean wrong and in some ways right. Germany has something like 80% land borders making armies for survival very important and only 20% sea. That is survival defense thinking. To be a world power it was quickly becoming known that resources of use were around the world. That does require ships to bring it in and thus a navy to protect them. The coal era ships needed to refuel. Refueling by "coaling" was a hideous task of moving hundreds of tons of coal by either gravity chutes or quite often by the sailors carrying the sacks or shovelling. This was a time consuming tasks. Oil ships can use pipes and pumps at dock and later with at sea refuelling far easier than the coal. The range for coal era ships was also an issue. Having colonies meant having coaling stations. Without those the fleets could be unable to move or crawling at minimal speeds or possibly even getting interred by being fuel forced into a neutral port. The moment you want to have a resource colony far away you now also need the coaling stations along the way to get there. For Rule the Waves 2 this leads my early game strategy to fighting wars to get at least one colony in the different sea zones. Then that represents my coaling stations. In game it means my raiders have a choice of home port to snuggle in if there are fuel shortages, mechanical breakdown, mine hits, torpedo hits or damage from tactical battles. Economic relevance in fighting with peer level opponents, Germany fighting land neigbhours, is a lot tougher than influencing or conquering below peer colonies. The amount of militar power for the colonies leads to things like the importance of river boats in Africa vs 20,000 ton capital ships. Expanding your resources by conquering neighbours can happen but this game doesnt really trade local territories. If you win a war and don't take all the points in colonies you would get an economic benefit. This could be used to simulate getting a more continental approach to Germany. If your neighbours have colonies they get resources, banana or oil, that you never will. That will leave you behind in economic development and in prestige. This was part of the challenge. >>>> You always need to defend your home waters. If nothing else you need to make sure your home waters don't get blockaded. Otherwise you can lose the war from the starvation of population. Thus you can always have some of your fleet with short range! Accommodation narrowing is possible was well. A month or so ago on the forum another poster (name not recalled) brought up about using tiny short range destroyers. Ive found 600 to 700 ton destroyers with short range are viable. The use is to put them in the homewaters. Also they take ~9 months to build while larger DDs are ~12 months. Once a war start a half short and half medium range DD covers alot of needs. The need for DDs in distant water is only part of the concern so the cheaper little ones are viable. By extension you could look at half or 2/3 of your capital fleet being meant for home waters. The cost savings of short range varies. In the coal era its pretty big. In the oil and later diesel eras the difference between short and medium range is often only a few hundred tons of building. Long range though is always a major design choice for the needed tonnage. >>>> The colonial part of the fleet Since some of the fleet can be short range some of it will be needed for medium or long range. The ships are the ones to be used for Colonial work. This is needed to stop the sudden invasions for unguard colonies or to win battles where invasions are taking place. How many you need is a variable question with no clear answer. >>> Invasions take local superiority and clear home waters It will also be affected by if you want to start colonial invasions in which case you need local superiority in that distant sea zone while still making sure your home waters aren't blockaded. If he home waters are blockaded you aren't allowed to start an invasion. >>> Actionable items: = Short range for half to 2/3 of your capital ships = Short range for half of the DDs = Take less colonies when winning a war = When you do take a colony focus on getting new sea zones to have your coaling stations and "exotic" trade goods I agree with your actionable items. I don't always take colonies only ones that are geopolitically necessary. My problem is that unless I missed it, the short, medium and long, and extended ranges are not defined in NMI. I would like to know that information. I would also like those ranges defined as either economical cruising and full speed, it makes a big difference. Thanks for your insights.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 9, 2021 18:37:12 GMT -6
I did some research in my books on coastal armored ships of the German Navy. The first one is the Odin class coastal armored ships of 1891. Their range was 2200/3000 nm @ 10kt. This Wikipedia page is the only source I have found with a complete list of coastal warships. This is a quote that caught my eye: "They were small, often cruiser-sized warships that sacrificed speed and range for armor and armament." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_defence_ship#GermanySo, based on real history, the coastal warship was used by many minor nations except the Russians. But in the game, should we follow real history or virtual history. This is the question to be answered. I am leaning toward virtual history.
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Post by cv10 on Oct 10, 2021 0:48:52 GMT -6
1. The Chinese could go with a blue-water navy or a coastal navy, depending on circumstances. If finances were more pressed, a coastal navy and a restrained foreign policy might answer. However, a blue-water navy might exercise more of a deterrent effect and offer a better chance of the fighting being done further away from China proper.
2. That coastal battleship design is interesting. The turrets are a bit lightly armored, but anything that gets hit by one of their broadsides is going to know it's been kissed.
3. I think you should follow virtual history. Jeune Ecole might be helpful, but I do not think that any of the historical coastal defense ship designs would satisfy Germany's security needs. Germany would need some heavy capital ships to support light forces in defending Heligoland Bight and the southern Baltic from enemy incursions.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 10, 2021 7:22:31 GMT -6
1. The Chinese could go with a blue-water navy or a coastal navy, depending on circumstances. If finances were more pressed, a coastal navy and a restrained foreign policy might answer. However, a blue-water navy might exercise more of a deterrent effect and offer a better chance of the fighting being done further away from China proper. 2. That coastal battleship design is interesting. The turrets are a bit lightly armored, but anything that gets hit by one of their broadsides is going to know it's been kissed. 3. I think you should follow virtual history. Jeune Ecole might be helpful, but I do not think that any of the historical coastal defense ship designs would satisfy Germany's security needs. Germany would need some heavy capital ships to support light forces in defending Heligoland Bight and the southern Baltic from enemy incursions. I have built and am building some more heavily armored and armed warships. As to the turrets, I beginning to move from speed to better armor on the deck, belt and turrets. Thanks for your comments, keep them coming. China could go with either or both, you should try this concept. I think there was a China nation developed but I will have to find it on the forum.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 10, 2021 8:02:50 GMT -6
I started a China game but allowed the AI to build the fleet. The destroyers are cramped and 400 tonners. I will leave them but update. Here is my first design of a light cruiser. I have tried to follow the concept of the coastal cruisers. The 3in belt is all the game would allow or it was an unrecognizable design.
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Post by brygun on Oct 10, 2021 10:24:35 GMT -6
I agree with your actionable items. I don't always take colonies only ones that are geopolitically necessary. My problem is that unless I missed it, the short, medium and long, and extended ranges are not defined in NMI. I would like to know that information. I would also like those ranges defined as either economical cruising and full speed, it makes a big difference. Thanks for your insights. On many things we do agree. >>>> The endurance range speed for all the real world navies is based on "cruising". That might be economic cruising, best for the single ship, or for at "fleet cruise", the planned economic speed for all ships in fleet maneuvers. In Sci Fi gaming friends and I tended to use the term "fleet cruise". Real world navies differed from nation to nation on what that speed was. IIRC Japan 14 knots and USA 16 knots. In RTW the tactical battle "cruise" is 14 knots early in the game and 16 knots fairly soon. For this reason my corvettes are given speeds above 16 knots representing the ability to go at "fleet cruise" with some reserve of power to account for damage, breakdowns, fouling/fatigue of coal supply or hull barnacles. I used to use 21 knots as with a purely square law roughly 14 knots takes half the power for 21 knots. Now I build my corvettes as 19 or 20 knots through most of the game as its a tad lighter on tonnage, still faster than subs through most of the time periods and lets 800-900 ton designs do all the other things I want. When we see merchants in the game they are typically cruising at 8 knots. I may have seen 12 knots once or twice but the memore is vague. This puts military fleet speed of 14 or 16 fast enough to catch them. My cheap raiders are often 20 knots to start mostly for the good odds of escaping initial AI interceptor designs which have 22 knots. 1940s the interceptors are doing 32 knots and no way can a cheap raider out run that. Still 20 knots on a raider is a little above cruising so if they arent in contact the raider can go faster than a merely cruising interceptor. Methinks I hasth digressed enough... >>>> AFAIK the devs never defined the NMI, nautical mile range, as that is a grain of detail not suited to the intentions of their designer. Springsharp goes that fine but not RTW. In RTW Short disallows changing sea zones in wartime Medium is standard Long reduces the risk of running out of fuel messages which is important for raiders in unsupported oceans (Query: not sure if it improves odds of catching merchants) Extreme is even better for avoiding fuel supply losses In broad terms I think of short as something as "less than an Atlantic crossing": www.google.com/search?q=length+of+an+atlantic+crossing&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA885CA885&oq=length+of+an+atlantic+crossing&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l2j0i390l2.4558j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8The crossing must be made from Ambrose Light of New York to an imaginary line linking Lizard Point, Cornwall to Ushant. The distance is around 2,880 nautical miles (5,330 km; 3,310 mi). In that if it was at or longer than at least one way Atlantic crossing the ship might well move certainly to and fro in war time. Cicrumnavigating the globe is www.google.com/search?q=distance+to+circumnavigate+the+globe&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA885CA885&oq=distance+to+circumn&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0i512l3j0i22i30j0i390l2.7144j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8It could be stated that a circumnavigation of the world is a journey of 40,075 km or 24, 901 miles (the circumference of the world at its widest point) following a perfect circle around the planet. So 25K >>>> With that my guesses are: Short = 1500 - 3000 nmi medium = 3K - 6K Long = 6K to (9 or 12?)K Extreme = over 9K? or over 12K to 25K? Some interpretations: Short range: Germany to England and back again. Italians trucking around the Mediterranean. USA coastal guards poking out from the coast and up and down the coast. Medium 3K - 6K has some allowance for a raider to cross the Atlantic, make some local actions, but need to get fuel by: taking fuel off merchants intercepted, buying discreetly, meeting a preplanned supply ship like Altmark etc. I generally assume the hidden supply ships until I get a colony in that sea zone. Long can certainly on its own cross the Atlantic, take actions and then return. Or it could make a huge trip from the home waters, crossing in secret one or more sea zones, only then go to a distant colony to get refueled and then start raiding. Some of the German raiders leaving Germany, sailing to the Indian ocean, raiding, going to South America East Coast, raiding, and still having fuel to get home to Germany. A pretty big distance indeed though in this game Germany might have African colonies for refuelling or sending out fuel ships to meet it. Long I sometimes put on larger carriers representing more their huge ship fuel stocks needed for them to keep doing high speed, fuel burning, speeds for aircraft management. If not running like that they could easily economic/fleet cruise across large distances. A carrier would need to get to an area (1,000+ km), go high speed for air ops (1-2K at high speed being 2-4 at cruise) and come home (1K+) so 4K to 10 K is certainly valid crossing the line between medium or long range. Extreme is quite huge and I rarely use it. The distance could potentially be circumnavigating without refueling.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 10, 2021 10:33:59 GMT -6
I agree with your actionable items. I don't always take colonies only ones that are geopolitically necessary. My problem is that unless I missed it, the short, medium and long, and extended ranges are not defined in NMI. I would like to know that information. I would also like those ranges defined as either economical cruising and full speed, it makes a big difference. Thanks for your insights. On many things we do agree. >>>> The endurance range speed for all the real world navies is based on "cruising". That might be economic cruising, best for the single ship, or for at "fleet cruise", the planned economic speed for all ships in fleet maneuvers. In Sci Fi gaming friends and I tended to use the term "fleet cruise". Real world navies differed from nation to nation on what that speed was. IIRC Japan 14 knots and USA 16 knots. In RTW the tactical battle "cruise" is 14 knots early in the game and 16 knots fairly soon. For this reason my corvettes are given speeds above 16 knots representing the ability to go at "fleet cruise" with some reserve of power to account for damage, breakdowns, fouling/fatigue of coal supply or hull barnacles. I used to use 21 knots as with a purely square law roughly 14 knots takes half the power for 21 knots. Now I build my corvettes as 19 or 20 knots through most of the game as its a tad lighter on tonnage, still faster than subs through most of the time periods and lets 800-900 ton designs do all the other things I want. When we see merchants in the game they are typically cruising at 8 knots. I may have seen 12 knots once or twice but the memore is vague. This puts military fleet speed of 14 or 16 fast enough to catch them. My cheap raiders are often 20 knots to start mostly for the good odds of escaping initial AI interceptor designs which have 22 knots. 1940s the interceptors are doing 32 knots and no way can a cheap raider out run that. Still 20 knots on a raider is a little above cruising so if they arent in contact the raider can go faster than a merely cruising interceptor. Methinks I hasth digressed enough... >>>> AFAIK the devs never defined the NMI, nautical mile range, as that is a grain of detail not suited to the intentions of their designer. Springsharp goes that fine but not RTW. In RTW Short disallows changing sea zones in wartime Medium is standard Long reduces the risk of running out of fuel messages which is important for raiders in unsupported oceans (Query: not sure if it improves odds of catching merchants) Extreme is even better for avoiding fuel supply losses In broad terms I think of short as something as "less than an Atlantic crossing": www.google.com/search?q=length+of+an+atlantic+crossing&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA885CA885&oq=length+of+an+atlantic+crossing&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l2j0i390l2.4558j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8The crossing must be made from Ambrose Light of New York to an imaginary line linking Lizard Point, Cornwall to Ushant. The distance is around 2,880 nautical miles (5,330 km; 3,310 mi). In that if it was at or longer than at least one way Atlantic crossing the ship might well move certainly to and fro in war time. Cicrumnavigating the globe is www.google.com/search?q=distance+to+circumnavigate+the+globe&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA885CA885&oq=distance+to+circumn&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0i512l3j0i22i30j0i390l2.7144j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8It could be stated that a circumnavigation of the world is a journey of 40,075 km or 24, 901 miles (the circumference of the world at its widest point) following a perfect circle around the planet. So 25K >>>> With that my guesses are: Short = 1500 - 3000 nmi medium = 3K - 6K Long = 6K to (9 or 12?)K Extreme = over 9K? or over 12K to 25K? Some interpretations: Short range: Germany to England and back again. Italians trucking around the Mediterranean. USA coastal guards poking out from the coast and up and down the coast. Medium 3K - 6K has some allowance for a raider to cross the Atlantic, make some local actions, but need to get fuel by: taking fuel off merchants intercepted, buying discreetly, meeting a preplanned supply ship like Altmark etc. I generally assume the hidden supply ships until I get a colony in that sea zone. Long can certainly on its own cross the Atlantic, take actions and then return. Or it could make a huge trip from the home waters, crossing in secret one or more sea zones, only then go to a distant colony to get refueled and then start raiding. Some of the German raiders leaving Germany, sailing to the Indian ocean, raiding, going to South America East Coast, raiding, and still having fuel to get home to Germany. A pretty big distance indeed though in this game Germany might have African colonies for refuelling or sending out fuel ships to meet it. Long I sometimes put on larger carriers representing more their huge ship fuel stocks needed for them to keep doing high speed, fuel burning, speeds for aircraft management. If not running like that they could easily economic/fleet cruise across large distances. A carrier would need to get to an area (1,000+ km), go high speed for air ops (1-2K at high speed being 2-4 at cruise) and come home (1K+) so 4K to 10 K is certainly valid crossing the line between medium or long range. Extreme is quite huge and I rarely use it. The distance could potentially be circumnavigating without refueling. Thanks for the useful information, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas. It helps me. Just a quick note. When built in 1869, the Suez Canal was 25 feet deep, so many warship could not pass through her. She has been deepened, but I would have to check on that. It might be a limitation in the game we haven't got. Also, rivers are many times shallow during the dry times of the year and droughts. The Chinese built there ships with shallow draught to compensate for that.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 10, 2021 12:11:32 GMT -6
In order to distinguish between ships designed for the blue waters and the coastal ships, I am designating a class with a -C on the name. It works nice because I can now look at the ships and see which ones can be used trade protection and not used for raiders etc.
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