DLC, an Italy AAR

[garrisonchisholm]

Jun 21, 2022 11:55:16 GMT -6 maxnacemit said:

Jun 21, 2022 11:12:23 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

LOL  yes, the Holy City will receive many visits, believe me.

As far as ordnance, in the same way ordnance capability for bombs and torpedoes is only 'moved' by tech level, so too are missiles treated; that was the ordnance model in the game system.  Missiles will have an appropriate range for type based on the current tech.  In the same way bombs and torpedoes are 'universal' so too are missiles.  No nation's missile of a type is considered to be grossly different than anothers, and a nation only has one 'model' of a given type in inventory at a time.  The micromanagement to ensure ships would have stocks of different types every time the tech improved would make the colonial cruiser shuffle look like fun, so that's why bombs and torpedoes and now missiles are treated this way in the game.

In an engagement the game will consider techs and determine who has the greater range, attacker or defender, whether MRAAM, SRAAM, ASM, or RocTorp, and this will be based on type and your relative tech.  In an anti-shipping engagement superior range (such as the Over the Horizon capability which I achieved 1 month before the current war) indicates the attack is launched without risk to the attacker.  If the defender has CAP then they could be vectored to intercept beyond the target's SAM umbrella.  MRAAM could engage a target before one with SRAAM, and both types of missiles augment the FP of the intercepting fighter, which number is then compared to the target using the same deter/damage/kill engine as in RTW2.

Thanks for your explanation of the engagement range! I meant "type of ASMs" as "light/medium/heavy", though.

I believe Medium Bombers are considered to carry HASMs while all other strike craft carry Medium also do so, and I don't remember seeing a Light ASM in use, but I'll post the facts as soon as I clarify them.

[seawolf]

Jun 22, 2022 20:26:49 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Jun 21, 2022 11:55:16 GMT -6 maxnacemit said:

Thanks for your explanation of the engagement range! I meant "type of ASMs" as "light/medium/heavy", though.

I believe Medium Bombers are considered to carry HASMs while all other strike craft carry Medium, and I don't remember seeing a Light ASM in use, but I'll post the facts as soon as I clarify them.

Are guided bombs a choosable payload now?

[garrisonchisholm]

Jun 23, 2022 17:49:59 GMT -6 seawolf said:

Jun 22, 2022 20:26:49 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

I believe Medium Bombers are considered to carry HASMs while all other strike craft carry Medium, and I don't remember seeing a Light ASM in use, but I'll post the facts as soon as I clarify them.

Are guided bombs a choosable payload now?

(sorry this took so long to reply to; RL)

No, Medium bombers are presumed to carry Heavy guided bombs at tech 1 for missiles, but as soon as ASMs are available they are in turn presumed to be superior (and smaller) and used in place of Fritz X types.  Also, ASMs on carriers that you can equip in a strike load-out are all considered Heavy, seeing as we are likely to use them against capital ships in our dreadnought-lover's game.

[seawolf]

Jun 25, 2022 12:14:42 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Jun 23, 2022 17:49:59 GMT -6 seawolf said:

Are guided bombs a choosable payload now?

(sorry this took so long to reply to; RL)

No, Medium bombers are presumed to carry Heavy guided bombs at tech 1 for missiles, but as soon as ASMs are available they are in turn presumed to be superior (and smaller) and used in place of Fritz X types.  Also, ASMs on carriers that you can equip in a strike load-out are all considered Heavy, seeing as we are likely to use them against capital ships in our dreadnought-lover's game.

Is a heavy ASM equivalent to a heavy SSM?  I can't imagine any carrier aircraft could carry something like a shipwreck so is there a SSM-ASM conversion?

[garrisonchisholm]

Jun 25, 2022 22:11:19 GMT -6 seawolf said:

Jun 25, 2022 12:14:42 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

(sorry this took so long to reply to; RL)

No, Medium bombers are presumed to carry Heavy guided bombs at tech 1 for missiles, but as soon as ASMs are available they are in turn presumed to be superior (and smaller) and used in place of Fritz X types.  Also, ASMs on carriers that you can equip in a strike load-out are all considered Heavy, seeing as we are likely to use them against capital ships in our dreadnought-lover's game.

Is a heavy ASM equivalent to a heavy SSM?  I can't imagine any carrier aircraft could carry something like a shipwreck so is there a SSM-ASM conversion?

As far as range Heavies outrange Mediums for all types, but as far as damage I'm not sure that's relevant, unless we're talking about things cooking off on deck.  I also would expect an SSM would have more joules on board, I will ask about the specifics.

[garrisonchisholm]

Derna 1965

Immediately upon the initiation of hostilities the French Directorate very boldly and rather un-creatively attempted to replicate their greatest victory of the last war, the 1st Battle of Derna in the Gulf of Libya. As the air-forces of both sides had engaged viciously over the Narrow Front part of the ease the Regia Aeronautica experienced was due to the vast air umbrella that had been placed over the fleet destined for Benghazi. The French were aided by Italy's tragic need to keep most all the Regia Marina's airbases in reserve status, as there were only a projected 4 months of funds on hand to support combat operations, at least pending strong legislation. The two fleets differed in size in only two areas; the French had 3 times as many cruisers and carriers.

Having seniority of service Commodore Emiliani took command, flying his flag from the elderly Dante Alighieri in the 2nd Battle Division.



Only just beating the French to the scene, the fleet lurked deep in the gulf awaiting the French fleet to reveal itself. With about 3 hours' daylight remaining scouts finally discovered them. Emiliani ordered his forces split. He would take the Main force east while making as much electronic noise as possible, and the Scout Force would sail west at high speed attempting to avoid air attack and placing itself in position to swing north and seek a night engagement on the eventually retiring French. The Carrier Force was directed south, attempting to avoid detection and still launch every strike aircraft available on the French carriers.

The strikes themselves would cause consternation in the crews, as due to a general shortage of the newest type of ASM over half the strike squadrons would be directed to carry torpedoes, and a very un-maneuverable double-load at that. However they were assured that their aircraft's native ECM would protect them from the eventual torrent of SAM fire.

The fleet's only jets would remain to provide CAP for the carriers while a hodgepodge of pairs filled out the other 5 flattop's deck spot's as the strike's escort. The strike amounted to;

77 Piaggio p.270B equipped with Medium ASMs
108 Piaggio p.270B equipped with 2 torpedoes each

12 total S.M. 260 fighters

The train of squadrons in two major segments stretched almost 20 miles. Contact was made with the French CAP at 15:07.

The Attack

The leading squadron of the RM strike was 7611 Gruppo off the Carrier Force flagship Aquila. 7611 however was either snake-bit or timid, for they never contacted the enemy despite being only a bare mile ahead of the next squadron in, so their 13 ASMs would end up not being fired at the enemy fleet.

The actual first squadron to contact the French was 9217 Gruppo off the Martin, and 4 of their number were immediately destroyed by the French CAP of over 30 fighters before the conglomerate escort squadron could engage. Of the 12 fighters sortied only 1 would return, though an immediate write-off after landing. These 12 fighters, the older RM model which only had half the speed of the ubiquitous French jets were nearly the only reason the strike force was not annihilated at the CAP periphery. As the rest of the planes arrived on the scene the ASM equipped aircraft rapidly launched their missiles and beat a hasty retreat. Still in addition to the original 4, 15 were shot down at the edge of the HSAM zone as they launched with a further 5 being consigned to parts after landing.

For the 105 torpedo aircraft which made it past the whirling & sacrificial melee their lives now depended upon the little red light on their instrument panels which indicated they were being painted by over 100 air-search radars, and which when blinking told the pilots that they were seeking to confound the guidance being provided to a terminally homing missile.

This most basic of ECM was all that stood between them and destruction as they crossed 100 miles of sky to get close enough to a target to drop their very heavy twin cargo.

It is quite possible that the countermeasures worked as designed, however if a heavy missile detonated 40 feet further away the target was sprayed by shrapnel anyway. The planes spread out as they bored in, attempting to make the proximity detonations less damaging, however the planes dropped steadily. Matters did not improve as the range closed, for while the French Medium and Light SAMs carried smaller warheads they seemed to be not as susceptible to the RM ECM. Over the twelve minutes it took to crawl through the French SAM zones 45 of their numbers were destroyed, and of the 60 that survived 10 once returned would never fly again.

Given those remaining 50 aircraft carried 100 torpedoes between them it might appear that Emiliani's gambit had paid off, except for the unfortunate fact that only 5 of those found targets, chiefly due to the pilot's desperation to exit the SAM zone. 2 of the 5 hits were delivered by 9218 Gruppo of the Force Flag Aquila, and both on one of the 4 French Super-carriers present. Fortunately 27 of the 53 launched ASMs found targets as well, and 4 of those struck the very same carrier, Landes;

The carrier would be lucky to make it back to a French port, but her suffering was caused predominantly by the fact that she was closest to the approaching Italian forces. One ASM however made its way over the Landes to perhaps find the spooled afterburner of a just launching French counterstroke;

 

With copious amounts of JetA and anti-shipping ordnance ignited the ship burned brightly until the horizon rose to obscure the receding French Fleet. The French did get off a counterattack, however it was only 26 torpedo bombers which found the RM Main Force, and 18 of them were destroyed by CAP and SAM, with the Vittorio Veneto skillfully evading the only 3 torpedoes that became a danger. Italian Intelligence has no notional guess as to why the French strike was not armed with missiles.

Aftermath

While only 2 French ships were sunk, over a dozen were hit, and aircraft losses were the only wounds the Regia Marina suffered. With their invasion only a bluff and much of their fleet in flames the French withdrew.

The Italian Navy would have suffered much greater losses had their native ECM not functioned as well as it did, yet Commodore Emiliani would still face recrimination for the twin decisions to send half his men in with weapons that would require them to be in a SAM danger-zone for over 20 minutes, and overloaded at that. Still, the initial engagement forced upon the Regia Marina had gone splendidly, somewhat countering the uneasy feeling caused by the sheer numbers of enemies before them.

Following the battle Commodore Emiliani was promoted and given command of the newly formed 1st Carrier Division;

[maxnacemit]

That was epic! Also, are helicopters counted as FS or do you still use floatplanes on ships in 1965?

[garrisonchisholm]

Jul 13, 2022 6:48:12 GMT -6 maxnacemit said:

That was epic! Also, are helicopters counted as FS or do you still use floatplanes on ships in 1965?

Some of my older DDs still carry float-planes which is why they appear in the summary.  I actually haven't had a battle featuring numerous helos, that's something to put on my to-do list.

[cogsandspigots]

Jul 13, 2022 2:27:49 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Given those remaining 50 aircraft carried 100 torpedoes between them it might appear that Emiliani's gambit had paid off, except for the unfortunate fact that only 5 of those found targets, chiefly due to the p.270's desperation to exit the SAM zone. 2 of the 5 hits were delivered by 9218 Gruppo of the Force Flag Aquila, and both on one of the 4 French Super-carriers present. Fortunately 27 of the 53 launched ASMs found targets as well, and 4 of those struck the very same carrier, Landes;

The carrier would be lucky to make it back to a French port, but her suffering was caused predominantly by the fact that she was closest to the approaching Italian forces. One ASM however made its way over the Landes to perhaps find the spooled afterburner of a just launching French counterstroke;

 

With copious amounts of JetA and anti-shipping ordnance ignited the ship burned brightly until the horizon rose to obscure the receding French Fleet. The French did get off a counterattack, however it was only 26 torpedo bombers which found the RM Main Force, and 18 of them were destroyed by CAP and SAM, with the Vittorio Veneto skillfully evading the only 3 torpedoes that became a danger. Italian Intelligence has no notional guess as to why the French strike was not armed with missiles.

Aftermath

While only 2 French ships were sunk, over a dozen were hit, and aircraft losses were the only wounds the Regia Marina suffered. With their invasion only a bluff and much of their fleet in flames the French withdrew.

The Italian Navy would have suffered much greater losses had their native ECM not functioned as well as it did, yet Commodore Emiliani would still face recrimination for the twin decisions to send half his men in with weapons that would require them to be in a SAM danger-zone for over 20 minutes, and overloaded at that. Still, the initial engagement forced upon the Regia Marina had gone splendidly, somewhat countering the uneasy feeling caused by the sheer numbers of enemies before them.

There must have been a serious improvement in damage control technology since 1955, because I would’ve written Landes off as completely lost. Either that, or the French navy drafted all of her crew from firefighter departments.

[garrisonchisholm]

Jul 13, 2022 9:33:20 GMT -6 cogsandspigots said:

Jul 13, 2022 2:27:49 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

There must have been a serious improvement in damage control technology since 1955, because I would’ve written Landes off as completely lost. Either that, or the French navy drafted all of her crew from firefighter departments.

I think we're seeing both sides of the coin, as Landes' crew should be lauded and Rhone's crew performance would probably be questioned.  Plus consider the ships are less than 10 years old with a lot of flotation, and France had enjoyed a surge of funding since the treaty ended.

Still I agree with you, it is somewhat amazing.  3 missiles either at or just below hangar level, a 4th to the superstructure- and there's a pretty limited quantity of that to pick from- all leading to 3 fires, plus an engine room torpedo And a critical.  and a 3rd torp for good measure.  Seeing those two burning would have gone a fair sight towards feeling > 50% aircrew casualties was worth it.  (apologies to any aircrew who needed to endure that saga; or read about it)

[benjamin1992perry]

With the Rhone, does the game go in depth to point of simulating poor practices such as what sunk the Japanese carriers at midway? simulating the effects of fueled and armed aircraft on the deck killing the DC parties at they detonate?

[garrisonchisholm]

Jul 16, 2022 1:31:30 GMT -6 benjamin1992perry said:

With the Rhone, does the game go in depth to point of simulating poor practices such as what sunk the Japanese carriers at midway? simulating the effects of fueled and armed aircraft on the deck killing the DC parties at they detonate?

It absolutely does.  In this case we know the conflagration began on deck, and the spreading fires can be assumed to be fueled by fuel and munitions, though if there were an avgas explosion in the hangar it would be reported as such.

(presumably immediately preceding the log note relaying the ship's demise.)

[flessar]

I suddenly can't see any pictures posted.

[garrisonchisholm]

Jul 18, 2022 0:44:37 GMT -6 flessar said:

I suddenly can't see any pictures posted.

Presuming that is not an oblique commentary to the fact that I haven't continued the tale since the last post (& I know it is not), I can't explain that.  I'll check my photo-bucket account though, maybe something is amiss.

[flamedraken]

The pictures are showing now but I had the same issue last night with the pictures not showing.