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Post by nimrod on Nov 5, 2021 8:18:26 GMT -6
Hmm, I can't honestly remember which it applies to now - armour thickness or penetration. It would make more sense to apply to the armour thickness (or effective armour thickness). It's also possible that the internal quality of the armour does factor in to the roll but am very sure it's not the only factor. Either a 10" plate will count as anything from 8" to 12" thickness or a shell rated as 10" penetration will actually penetrate anything from 8" to 12" of armour depending on how the dice roll. Interestingly, this does make a small difference. If the effect applies to the penetration roll, then a shell rated at 10" penetration will - on a very lucky hit - penetrate 12" of armour. If it applies to the armour, that means 12" of armour on the worst possible roll counts as only 9.6" and would be more readily penetrated by a weapon rated at 10". Die roll to armor and shell makes the most sense to me from a historical perspective for a lot of reasons: thinned out armor at the top of belt where it transition to BE or D, weak points were armor plates or structural members meet, angle the shell impacts at, atmospheric influences on the shells, quality of the shells...
the 1.08 manual states: "Armour is now increased in effectiveness with technology progress instead of becoming lighter."
The difference could be fairly significant if both armor and shell get modifiers... Especially for smaller caliber or earlier guns - to take OldPop's question again on 6" of belt armor and 9" Q-1 guns - So you may get random penetrations sub 5000 yards if the armor has the random -20%... 80% of 6" = 4.8" of effective armor. If the shells get the 20% boost than you are looking at around 5.6" of max penetration at 5,000 yards and 6" of belt armor should be pretty sufficient until AP technology advances. If the 20% could apply to both, than an exceptionally unlucky / lucky die roll may see pens out to 7,000+ yards on 6" of armor as the 9" gun has has a max potential pen of 4.56" at 8,000 yards.
Getting back to OldPop's quest, I'm playing with varied tech and it looks like I have some benefits to speed / weight...
The B is a pretty standard design for me other than it usually ends up around 20-21 knots when built in the UK. The goal is to have a bit of a tonnage advantage until BC's come into play and then they go to the far east / 2ndary duties like TP / R...
The CL I'm running a slightly modified computer generated design - was generated at 6400 tons and 23 knots and 2" belt. Main guns and lack of BE / DE is stock... I'm thinking I'm going to build two to run them though their paces and see just how bad they are in my hands...
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Post by cormallen on Nov 5, 2021 9:02:12 GMT -6
You can always change the ship types in the save game. Just find the design and the ships in the fleet list and rebrand them. I do it quite often as the game thinks some historical "Fast Pre-Dreadnoughts" are CAs. I'd not bother but for the BGs foibles. I just did that to the Kaiser Friedrich III, but in the list of ships, it is still registered as an armored cruiser. I tried to edit the autosave file but it doesn't affect it. That's odd? I often edit save games (save/exit/edit/reload) and that seems to work for me? Oh well, sorry.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 5, 2021 9:26:33 GMT -6
I just did that to the Kaiser Friedrich III, but in the list of ships, it is still registered as an armored cruiser. I tried to edit the autosave file but it doesn't affect it. That's odd? I often edit save games (save/exit/edit/reload) and that seems to work for me? Oh well, sorry. You have to also edit the first entry named "RTWgameN" where N is the save game file number. Now, search for the name of the ship, and then change that entry. In this case to B not CA. This worked, the ship register now shows this ship as an pre-dreadnought battleship.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 5, 2021 9:35:13 GMT -6
Here is the procedure I have followed to change the ships designation:
1. Find the Autosave file, the first one, there should be two.
2. Search for the ship name
3. Once located, change the ShipType to the desired ship type
4. Save the file.
5. Search the same directory the first RTWgameN where N is the save file number.
6. Search for [NationNShips]. The N is the ship number in the list. Once you have found that subheading, now look for the ships name
7. Edit the ShipNShipType andchange and change it to the desired designation.
8 Save the file.
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Post by cormallen on Nov 5, 2021 10:06:11 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 5, 2021 14:18:43 GMT -6
One of the jobs that I do, is to use Springsharp 3b3 to duplicate my game designs. So here is my design in Springsharp for the Kaiser Friedrich III. I did have to use the actual historical designs 11 inch belt armor to make the design functional. It is almost impossible to duplicate the game design or vice versa with Springsharp. I am going to work with design and get them closer...... hope springs eternal.
Kaiser Friedrich III, Germany Pre-Dreadnought laid down 1901
Displacement: 9,364 t light; 9,859 t standard; 10,354 t normal; 10,751 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (421.10 ft / 411.10 ft) x 67.00 ft x (25.90 / 26.65 ft) (128.35 m / 125.30 m) x 20.42 m x (7.89 / 8.12 m)
Armament: 4 - 9.40" / 239 mm 40.0 cal guns - 398.02lbs / 180.54kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1901 Model 2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread 18 - 5.90" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.55lbs / 46.97kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1901 Model 18 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 3,456 lbs / 1,568 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m torpedoes - 0.426 t each, 0.851 t total submerged side tubes
Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 267.22 ft / 81.45 m 9.82 ft / 2.99 m Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 143.87 ft / 43.85 m 9.82 ft / 2.99 m Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 2nd: 6.00" / 152 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 6.00" / 152 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm Forecastle: 2.50" / 64 mm Quarter deck: 2.50" / 64 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 6.00" / 152 mm, Aft 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 3 shafts, 10,870 ihp / 8,109 Kw = 18.00 kts Range 3,420nm at 10.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 892 tons (100% coal)
Complement: 513 - 667
Cost: £0.782 million / $3.130 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 595 tons, 5.7 % - Guns: 593 tons, 5.7 % - Weapons: 2 tons, 0.0 % Armour: 3,549 tons, 34.3 % - Belts: 1,467 tons, 14.2 % - Armament: 1,097 tons, 10.6 % - Armour Deck: 862 tons, 8.3 % - Conning Towers: 123 tons, 1.2 % Machinery: 1,672 tons, 16.2 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,548 tons, 34.3 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 991 tons, 9.6 % Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 17,649 lbs / 8,005 Kg = 42.5 x 9.4 " / 239 mm shells or 7.2 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17 Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m Roll period: 14.7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 90 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck, a ram bow and a round stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.508 / 0.513 Length to Beam Ratio: 6.14 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 20.28 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1.00 degrees Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m - Forward deck: 30.00 %, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m - Aft deck: 35.00 %, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m - Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m, 26.30 ft / 8.02 m - Average freeboard: 26.30 ft / 8.02 m
Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.1 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.5 % Waterplane Area: 18,486 Square feet or 1,717 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 558 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.83 - Longitudinal: 5.20 - Overall: 1.00 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
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Post by aeson on Nov 5, 2021 14:24:28 GMT -6
I would suggest that an easier way to change ship classification is to edit the design file before you lay any ships of the class down.
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Post by cormallen on Nov 6, 2021 0:52:21 GMT -6
I would suggest that an easier way to change ship classification is to edit the design file before you lay any ships of the class down. Hi Aeson, A touch easier, if they are player ships. The Bismarck I was changing was in an AI force however and part of the "Quasi-Historical" opforce fleets I give everyone in my games. I mod those a fair bit as some of the real ships they have break the IG design parameters in various ways... see my AAR for the various Italian, German and American Battleships that are not "legal" and cannot be added without some shenanigans. Alan
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 7, 2021 8:28:08 GMT -6
As I have continued to review my D.K.Brown and Norman Friedman books on cruises, I put together this design for a colonial service. It has long range and colonial service, four 6 inch guns, six 4 inch guns and speed of 21 knots. I believe that the armor protection is more than adequate for the ships it will meet on colonial service.
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Post by aeson on Nov 7, 2021 9:21:47 GMT -6
It may be more or less true to a historical design, but I would not expect that cruiser to do well in the game. 4x1x6"+6x1x4" is a very weak armament for a 6700-ton cruiser, a speed of 21 knots is no better than adequate even at game start and probably won't hold up that well moving forwards, and I don't think that the 1.5" BE, the 2" D, or the 3.5" T are particularly worth the tonnage you invested into them.
Additionally, fitting a 6700-ton cruiser for colonial service probably won't be of much practical benefit unless you set it to FS as few sea zones want more than 6,000 tons on station at game start, and Long Range isn't especially worthwhile on non-raiders - especially on a ship such as this, which I would not want to engage a raider unsupported.
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Post by cormallen on Nov 7, 2021 11:06:59 GMT -6
I agree that long range is rarely worthwhile, especially for the RN who are rarely operating in areas without territory and bases. And that this firepower is a touch light... My RN "Colonial Cruisers" (Encounter class in my AAR) for example, are 6k tons and have a six gun 6 inch broadside. I tend to go for "Reliable" engines early game (seems to make less relative difference once turbines take over though), especially for cruisers who are more likely to be fighting/running/chasing on their own.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 7, 2021 11:28:47 GMT -6
The General Board will consider your suggestions.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 7, 2021 14:06:03 GMT -6
I am revolutionizing the construction of destroyers. I am now designing Super Destroyers. Here is the first design based on the requirements of the Direction des Constructions Navales (DCNS). Whew, that's a mouthpiece. Anyway, here is the design.
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Post by cormallen on Nov 7, 2021 14:59:08 GMT -6
Impressive beastie! Fisher would've loved it! Expensive and rather fragile though. Lose a knot and armour the turrets a little maybe? IRL the cost effectiveness would kill it but the BGs love of duels might help out?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 7, 2021 15:26:32 GMT -6
Impressive beastie! Fisher would've loved it! Expensive and rather fragile though. Lose a knot and armour the turrets a little maybe? IRL the cost effectiveness would kill it but the BGs love of duels might help out? This is a French Naval Warship in the best traditions of Napoleon Bonaparte. It will revolutionize warfare and clear the seas of our enemies. Maybe
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