Turn off torpedoes for surface ships.

[alterego45]

Is there any way to keep the strike capabilities of submarines and torpedo bombers, but prevent any torpedoes from appearing on surface ships?

I really love these RTW games but every time I play them the glitches and weird stuff with torpedoes drive me absolutely up the wall, to where I dread battle segments. This thing where a squadron of my destroyers takes a pasting to close to within optimal torpedo range of a capital ship, only to get there and not be able to fire because I'm "Out of arc" or "Friendly in the way" when I can clearly see that those things aren't true... it kills my interest in the game every time.

And it's not just me. This war I'm fighting now, the AI opponent has sunk two of its own ships with torpedo fire and none of mine. Obviously something is seriously wrong with the LOS, but it seems like this is a very hard fix given both versions of the game have been like this.

I don't play the RTW series as much as it merits, and that's largely because I often feel like firing it up, only to remember the problems with torpedoes (which are probably the most important aspect of the game) and think "No... I really don't want to contend with that".

Anyway, it seems like the best way to do what I intend is to increase the weight of the tubes so that they're impossible to install on anything. But I don't see that in any of the data files. Could one of you modders point me to the right file to modify TT weight?

[w2c]

That wouldn't work though to my knowledge as the game uses templates which is why the AI often cheats with stuff it can't legally build. Not only that but that would make destroyers impossible as they have to have torpedoes.

[alterego45]

Ah, I didn't know the AI used templates - I thought it was using procedural generation with some kind of parameters based on the ship type it wanted to construct. You're right in that there's no way around that.

I'll play around with it a bit. Maybe if I reduce torp damage to 0 (I see a file for that), the AI will be smart enough to opt for gunfire instead AND it won't mess up submarines and bombers. You never know.

Thanks!

[dorn]

You can change year of torpedo techs in files. I would suggest back up your RTW folder first.

Relating to torpedo solution, post some screenshots and saves.
For most people torpedo solutions are unintuitive, especially on slow speed torpedo setting when ships move considerably compared to torpedo run.

I would let torpedoes to be handled AI. AI is quite good at it and dangerous. If you prefer do it manually, you get quite an advantage compared to AI as game simulates reality which includes that captains of ship did not have such ideal information you have in game.

Another important thing is that if you or AI pursuit, you are in big disadvantage related to torpedo solutions as enemy has usually ideal torpedo solutions but you have none.

[w2c]

Agreed with letting the AI do it. Battles become so ridiculously easy when you manually control everything that it stops being fun to me. Every battle turns into a super decisive engagement where you destroy the entirety of their fleet in just a couple of hours. I personally play in captain's mode only to give myself the penalty to points, but play as if I'm in admiral's mode where I only control the lead elements and let every other division operate as they will. There's definitely some frustration that comes from that but I feel that's entirely realistic. I still tend to win pretty handily but I do occasionally make mistakes or run into some bad luck that cost me more than I'd have liked. But I can still say the AI tends to be very effective with torpedoes for me choosing good opportunities and targets and generally use nearly all of them during the course of battle so I don't feel it's something the player absolutely has to control if they want it done right kind of thing.

[alterego45]

I don't have any screenshots but yes, most of my issues are in pursuit situations. I'm usually destroyer heavy without really good capital ships, so battles for me are about trying to draw their capital ships close enough to where I can run them down with destroyers. The AI seems to be well aware that this is what I'm trying to do, to its credit. So unless I'm running at night most of my destroyer rushes are bluffs to back their vessels off.

So unless it's pitch dark (where I don't usually have problems), typical torpedo situation for me is where I send out a destroyer formation against an enemy CA or battleship which has pulled too far away from its support. I wind up with a lead destroyer running parallel with the target, 400-800 yds out, and maybe I'm doing 29kt and he's doing 21. I don't have time to pull ahead because we're now closing in on all his support ships and I'll get obliterated if I keep going. It feels like I should be able to fire in that position but sometimes I'm out of arc and sometimes I'm not.

It's hard to describe the 'friendly ship' situations as there are so many of them and they vary. Needless to say it doesn't look like there would be a friendly in the way. Is the game assuming everyone is going to run in a straight line based on the position they're holding?

With AI control they do tend to be accurate although they don't fire nearly as often as I would. But what about target selection? When I let the AI control the torps, oftentimes they'll waste most of their torpedoes on screening CL when that isn't my target, particularly during surprise attacks. That or they'll hit the same ship 8 times while the other ship right behind it remains unscathed. I can't really expect the AI to know what my thoughts are but how do you handle that? Judicious and frequent use of "hold torpedo fire"?

Not sure I have the stones to play Admiral. I'm not THAT good of a player where I can crush a superior fleet in open battle!

[dorn]

For example with 1904 tech, if target course is 90 degrees, target is on 0 degrees and has speed of 21 knots, torpedo solutions exist only up to 661 yards, it is quite close.

If same target has course 80 degrees, the max. distance to have torpedo solution is decreased to 544 yards. So even slightly different course make a difference. At this target solution torpedo will make 1000 yards in 48 degrees and target for that time (63 seconds) will make 750 yards.

Another example with max. tech.

If enemy ship is fast (cruiser, battlecruiser) making 31 knots and you are on parallel, your maximal distance to have torpedo solution is only 2892 yards! The speed of target is crutial especially if course of target is so that it increases distance.

This shows that having good position is key for succesful torpedo attack and it shows why torpedo attacks from both sides is much more effective.

note: your speed is irrelevant, it can only help to get into position but for torpedo solution, it does not matter

[alterego45]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and I think any player of this game has seen something like this. 

Very early phase of a surprise attack. Hatakaze is undamaged and all tubes are full. The battleship is 400 yds away and stationary, or if it has started moving it is under 5kt. 

The message I'm getting is that all of my tubes are out of arc. But another squadron who passed through a minute or so earlier were able to take shots which weren't too much different than this at other ships, and when they took those shots I had my choice of which tubes I wanted to use. Why can't I fire now?

IMHO it would be a lot better if I could see what calculations the AI was making which determine that this shot cannot be taken. Where I can go... well, OK, why can't I do this? What position do you want me to put you in where you will launch? Then I could not only move there now, but also gain an understanding of how the mechanic works. But since the game doesn't tell you anything besides "no" in this situation, it is easy to look at something like this as a layman and assume it is a bug. And assuming that, just move to the next round and hope that this 'glitch' (I know it isn't a glitch but it seems that way) has ironed itself out by then.

If I ever figure out torpedoes I will try and write a guide on them. The use of them and of destroyers seems to be the issue people stumble over most often.

Attachments:

[w2c]

Well I never launch torpedoes myself so I can't speak with any authority on it, but my first impression here is there are no torpedo tubes actually pointing at the target. If you draw a line out from the tubes they're aimed away and 400 yards doesn't give much leeway. You'd need to have your ship more squared to the target to have better solutions I think.

[alterego45]

Dec 14, 2021 20:12:09 GMT -6 w2c said:

Well I never launch torpedoes myself so I can't speak with any authority on it, but my first impression here is there are no torpedo tubes actually pointing at the target. If you draw a line out from the tubes they're aimed away and 400 yards doesn't give much leeway. You'd need to have your ship more squared to the target to have better solutions I think.

Well that might be it, but these tubes are listed as "broadside swivel mounts".

So I always believed that the picture is just a broad representation and the tubes in practice have more or less the same firing arc that a casemate gun would have. So this particular vessel would have torpedo coverage everywhere around it except for directly ahead and behind.

But that's just my assumption - with torps I'm not 100% on anything other than that they do a ton of damage.

[w2c]

They can swivel but that doesn't give complete range of coverage. Not only that but as dorn mentioned previously, the fact that you're "chasing" makes that angle particularly unattractive. Even swiveling the tubes up enough to line up a possible angle, the torp would be hitting it traveling in the same direction which would minimize the impact so it'd be less likely to go off, or more likely just sliding along the hull. If you assume that your ship is moving in the exact opposite direction from where it is and then draw out the line from where the tubes fire to where a moving ship would be then you'd get a more perpendicular hit which is generally what you want for your shots. The angle your destroyer is actually on is a terrible shot to take against moving opponents. Obviously you know the BB isn't moving but the fact that they have yet to identify its class suggests they haven't been able to confirm it as immobile which makes it an even murkier shot when you can't put in an accurate solution for the speed of the vessel you're trying to hit.

Edit: As a general rule of thumb, you want your firing solutions to be as perpendicular to the target as possible. It's usually ideal to be firing from "ahead" of where the target is moving because when you draw the lines out and factor in the distance the target will move before the torp can arrive at the impact location will resolve the angle to make it more perpendicular by that point. For a stationary target, you'd want to align the ship firing the torpedo to be directly astride the target ship with the torps lined up as directly as possible as there will be no extra movement from the target ship to improve the angle otherwise. Firing torpedoes while chasing is almost always an unfavorable proposition as it becomes more difficult to get a good angle for where the target should be by the time the torpedo arrives but also because the speed that the target is moving in relation to the direction the torpedo is coming from reduces the force of the impact and makes it less likely that the detonation trigger will go off at all. The lesson here is try not to fire while chasing. Get even or better yet ahead of the target before firing.

[dorn]

Dec 14, 2021 19:53:14 GMT -6 alterego45 said:

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and I think any player of this game has seen something like this. 

Very early phase of a surprise attack. Hatakaze is undamaged and all tubes are full. The battleship is 400 yds away and stationary, or if it has started moving it is under 5kt. 

The message I'm getting is that all of my tubes are out of arc. But another squadron who passed through a minute or so earlier were able to take shots which weren't too much different than this at other ships, and when they took those shots I had my choice of which tubes I wanted to use. Why can't I fire now?

IMHO it would be a lot better if I could see what calculations the AI was making which determine that this shot cannot be taken. Where I can go... well, OK, why can't I do this? What position do you want me to put you in where you will launch? Then I could not only move there now, but also gain an understanding of how the mechanic works. But since the game doesn't tell you anything besides "no" in this situation, it is easy to look at something like this as a layman and assume it is a bug. And assuming that, just move to the next round and hope that this 'glitch' (I know it isn't a glitch but it seems that way) has ironed itself out by then.

If I ever figure out torpedoes I will try and write a guide on them. The use of them and of destroyers seems to be the issue people stumble over most often.

Can you have a save?
It seems from the screenshot that your destroyer does not identified ship as enemy yet. It would not fire on ship which is not identified as enemy.
Another possibility is that it is not in right arc yet.
Or may be you are too close to safely fire torpedoes.

[sjpc302]

To the original topic, one of the problems with torpedo launching is that the 'Friendly ship is in line of fire check' appears to use the friendly ship's current position, not the predicted position by the time the torpedo would reach them. This is part of why that restriction was so bad before it was reduced a while back. However, as it is you will see DD's hitting the capital ships they are screening with torpedoes sometimes. This is because a destroyer sees some narrow field of fire that appears fine based on where the other ship currently is, even though the ship it is beside will soon be in it. 

[wlbjork]

Dec 15, 2021 0:57:07 GMT -6 dorn said:

Can you have a save?
It seems from the screenshot that your destroyer does not identified ship as enemy yet. It would not fire on ship which is not identified as enemy.
Another possibility is that it is not in right arc yet.
Or may be you are too close to safely fire torpedoes.

For that matter, isn't there the issue that the ship models shown on the map are much larger than their true size at the scale viewed?

Anyway, taking that screen-shot and extrapolating some (freehand and not brilliant) firing lines:

If the enemy B turns towards you then your solutions improve and you get hits that are better suited to damaging the enemy.

I'd expect it to be more likely to turn away, however - it's pretty instinctive for the AI if it suspects torpedoes in the water. This would reduce the chance of a hit drastically as well as making the hit angle further from the most effective perpendicular.

[w2c]

Nice simple image but definitely illustrates the point.