uruk
New Member
Posts: 7 
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Post by uruk on May 20, 2023 11:38:34 GMT -6
To my knowledge China never serially produced any domestically-designed military combat aircraft until the later 1970s, so the intent of my statement is correct. The PRC in particular could not sustain any serious production of domestic-designed combat aircraft until after they acquired sufficient experience with existing designs to do so. Both the the Liuchow Kwangsi Type 3 and the Chu XP-O were only single prototypes and were never produced. Then Spain doesnt have a capability to produce combat aircraft either? Since they never produced a domestic designed aircraft |
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Post by TheOtherPoster on May 20, 2023 13:10:21 GMT -6
Then Spain doesnt have a capability to produce combat aircraft either? Since they never produced a domestic designed aircraft I agree China should have her own aircraft industry sometime in the game. But that's not the same case as Spain which, it's true, like China, had also many issues stopping her developing her aircraft industry. But nevertheless made her first small series of aircraft already in 1915, the Barrón Flecha, and many more types in the 1920s, like 110 Loring RIII. Also the famous Hispano-Suiza 8 engines in WWI, used by all the allied armies, were Spanish. Hispano-Suiza was a Spanish company. In 1911 they expanded into France and eventually the French part of the company would become a separate French company, after WWI. Many designs were developed over time in Spain but with always few available funds, the industry never really got as far as it should. The Autogyro was also a invented in Spain, the best being the Cierva C.30, but most would be produced outside Spain. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 20, 2023 17:33:08 GMT -6
My 1935 China game ended in 1945 when I was sacked for supporting a Communist Revolution which failed. So biggy, it was not fun at all. No more China.
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Post by alomoes on May 20, 2023 21:24:33 GMT -6
I feel like this is something you could mod in. I'll look in a couple days, but don't expect anything out of it, I have no idea what I'm doing.
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Post by colprice on May 21, 2023 14:33:06 GMT -6
Quote “ I started as China in 1935 - a mottly mix of old DD, couple of SS and KE.
Shortly after setting out airbases, aircraft licences, I was awarded 80000 for a new BB (BB, BC, or B). Reached a design stage (UK build, Nelson style with 3x3 14", 12x5" DP, 23 knots - more than a match for all Soviet and most Japanese BB), next thing I know is that the war dept snaffle the funds for the army...
So much for the war dept.!”
After some successes (DD convoy attacks), finally USA suggested an alliance - USA & Soviet Union had been at war for a few months.
Looking better!
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Post by mmmfriedrice on May 21, 2023 20:56:17 GMT -6
I support the idea that the China of RTW3 should have the opportunity to develop indigenous aircraft industry. As mentioned, the rather long list of what might be charitably called tremendous and unfortunate historical events that China had to put up with is, after all, not a done deal in the game. One could even pretend that the Qing government that starts in 1890 somehow manages to pull off its many ill-fated and too-little-too-late reforms and gradually develops over the years. Who knows? Part of the appeal of the series is managing to reverse or upset historical events (sometimes by the skin of our teeth), bounded only by the balancing mechanic of time-gating conceptual developments in order to limit the effect of modern hindsight. It would be entirely possible for a Qing China player (perhaps with a just the tiniest bit of divine intervention or literal star alignment) to trounce the Japanese in 1895, and then drag every one of the great powers to the negotiating table to return the occupied concessions. Unlikely, but that'd make for one hell of an AAR. |
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Post by Cuniberti on May 22, 2023 8:21:35 GMT -6
It would be nice if China could invest in an aircraft industry once certain conditions were met (stable government, large economy, alliance/tech sharing agreement), but I'm really happy with how it plays in the game now vs RTW2, it's a uniquely satisfying challenge.
I haven't really played through the later starts yet — if you want a strong China, your best bet is 1890. You will lose some territorial Concessions by event, but it's very possible to grow and reclaim them later. But don't build coastal forts until after 1900, except in Shanghai (which Japan really likes to surprise invade) and maybe Liaotung Peninsula, which you really don't want to lose if at all possible. Ally yourself with an advanced western power (I usually go with the US) and go to war with Japan early and often. Don't take (non-Chinese) territory, you want to maximize reparations to grow your economy and navy with every war.
You MUST keep clobbering Japan's navy and stealing their lunch money. Only once you've neutralized the IJN should you start picking on Spain and eventually other European powers, but you need good relations with at least a few of them to procure advanced ships and technology. You CAN build capital ships domestically if you want—it's a fun challenge, but ultimately a massive handicap. So how do you spend your limited resources? Here's what I've tried:
- Research. Set everything to Low priority except Fire Control, Light Forces, Torpedoes, Explosive Shells, AP Projectiles, and Fleet Tactics, which should all be High priority. I like to throw a lot of money at science, even if it's probably not the best return on investment.
- Training and Doctrine. Priorities are very costly, especially Gunnery, and I have often sacrificed training entirely in favour of cheaper maintenance, BUT I have found Night Fighting and Torpedo Warfare a deadly combination well worth the price. Damage Control is a very attractive new option as well.
- Construction. You can safely ignore Dock Size, I invest in it more for roleplaying purposes. Don't neglect shore batteries in Shanghai or other important bases, they'll help defend them against invasion. Air Bases are always handy, but be realistic about what sort of Air Groups you can afford.
- Ship Design and Fleet Tactics. You have two Home areas, and everybody wants a piece of them—use this to your advantage! Your capital ships and their dedicated scouting cruisers should all be Short Range, Cramped, and possibly Low Freeboard. You can put those weight savings into more survivability or lethality, or you can design something competitive at a lower displacement and build more of them. Order destroyers from foreign yards in two flavours—Moar Gun and Moar Torpedo—and steal tech until you're able to build satisfactory domestic designs.
- Grand Strategy. I cannot stress enough how constantly you should be at war with Japan in the 1890 start, just mind your tensions and their alliances or things can very quickly begin to resemble the 1935 start 😂
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 22, 2023 11:51:57 GMT -6
It would be nice if China could invest in an aircraft industry once certain conditions were met (stable government, large economy, alliance/tech sharing agreement), but I'm really happy with how it plays in the game now vs RTW2, it's a uniquely satisfying challenge. I haven't really played through the later starts yet — if you want a strong China, your best bet is 1890. You will lose some territorial Concessions by event, but it's very possible to grow and reclaim them later. But don't build coastal forts until after 1900, except in Shanghai (which Japan really likes to surprise invade) and maybe Liaotung Peninsula, which you really don't want to lose if at all possible. Ally yourself with an advanced western power (I usually go with the US) and go to war with Japan early and often. Don't take (non-Chinese) territory, you want to maximize reparations to grow your economy and navy with every war. You MUST keep clobbering Japan's navy and stealing their lunch money. Only once you've neutralized the IJN should you start picking on Spain and eventually other European powers, but you need good relations with at least a few of them to procure advanced ships and technology. You CAN build capital ships domestically if you want—it's a fun challenge, but ultimately a massive handicap. So how do you spend your limited resources? Here's what I've tried: - Research. Set everything to Low priority except Fire Control, Light Forces, Torpedoes, Explosive Shells, AP Projectiles, and Fleet Tactics, which should all be High priority. I like to throw a lot of money at science, even if it's probably not the best return on investment. - Training and Doctrine. Priorities are very costly, especially Gunnery, and I have often sacrificed training entirely in favour of cheaper maintenance, BUT I have found Night Fighting and Torpedo Warfare a deadly combination well worth the price. Damage Control is a very attractive new option as well. - Construction. You can safely ignore Dock Size, I invest in it more for roleplaying purposes. Don't neglect shore batteries in Shanghai or other important bases, they'll help defend them against invasion. Air Bases are always handy, but be realistic about what sort of Air Groups you can afford. - Ship Design and Fleet Tactics. You have two Home areas, and everybody wants a piece of them—use this to your advantage! Your capital ships and their dedicated scouting cruisers should all be Short Range, Cramped, and possibly Low Freeboard. You can put those weight savings into more survivability or lethality, or you can design something competitive at a lower displacement and build more of them. Order destroyers from foreign yards in two flavours—Moar Gun and Moar Torpedo—and steal tech until you're able to build satisfactory domestic designs. - Grand Strategy. I cannot stress enough how constantly you should be at war with Japan in the 1890 start, just mind your tensions and their alliances or things can very quickly begin to resemble the 1935 start 😂 I am using your suggestions and they seem to be working. However, I don't like to fight wars, so I avoid them. Right now I am fighting a war WITH Japan. That's different. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 22, 2023 13:02:47 GMT -6
The IJN and ICN just attacked a convoy and sank 14 transports. I'd say that was a victory.
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Post by Cuniberti on May 22, 2023 14:14:24 GMT -6
I am using your suggestions and they seem to be working. However, I don't like to fight wars, so I avoid them. Right now I am fighting a war WITH Japan. That's different. Peace is a viable strategy too! It's just not optimal because the only way to reliably grow your economy is through reparations. You'll want to fight at least one war at a time of your choosing so you have enough prestige to weather peacetime decisions and events. Allying Japan is an interesting choice if you don't mind being the junior partner in the Co-Prosperity Sphere. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 22, 2023 16:44:12 GMT -6
I am using your suggestions and they seem to be working. However, I don't like to fight wars, so I avoid them. Right now I am fighting a war WITH Japan. That's different. Peace is a viable strategy too! It's just not optimal because the only way to reliably grow your economy is through reparations. You'll want to fight at least one war at a time of your choosing so you have enough prestige to weather peacetime decisions and events. Allying Japan is an interesting choice if you don't mind being the junior partner in the Co-Prosperity Sphere. I agree and that is why I chose to fight with the Japanese. We won the war after sinking 24 transports. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 23, 2023 10:06:48 GMT -6
Well, my China game is now in September, 1907. I have four coastal submarines and a sizeable fleet for China. I have up to 600 ton destroyers but I haven't had the funding to build a battleship. I have won two wars, one against Russia with the help of GB and one against Germany. Game is going well.
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Post by Cuniberti on May 25, 2023 21:54:50 GMT -6
Well, my China game is now in September, 1907. I have four coastal submarines and a sizeable fleet for China. I have up to 600 ton destroyers but I haven't had the funding to build a battleship. I have won two wars, one against Russia with the help of GB and one against Germany. Game is going well. China's a lot of fun, huh? Really forces you to pay attention to foreign relations. My 1890 campaign is now at October, 1907—I finally won a five-year war alone against Japan and France. Under blockade and losing for the first half, Shanghai and Guangzhou were lost and regained, and I captured Haiphong. French government fell, Japan held out until Russia and Germany dogpiled them then finally collapsed, and not a moment too soon since I was on the verge of revolution myself. My economy and naval budget are now slightly larger than Spain's and nearly on par with Japan's. My battle fleet consists of 12 predreads, soon to be joined by some British-built BBs. Looking forward to building up for the next war. I also started a 1920 game as China (1935 looks a little too challenging for my liking). I can see why people think it's unplayable—it's certainly a lot less exciting if you're more interested in capital ships than light forces and small engagements. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 26, 2023 6:39:52 GMT -6
Well, my China game is now in September, 1907. I have four coastal submarines and a sizeable fleet for China. I have up to 600 ton destroyers but I haven't had the funding to build a battleship. I have won two wars, one against Russia with the help of GB and one against Germany. Game is going well. China's a lot of fun, huh? Really forces you to pay attention to foreign relations. My 1890 campaign is now at October, 1907—I finally won a five-year war alone against Japan and France. Under blockade and losing for the first half, Shanghai and Guangzhou were lost and regained, and I captured Haiphong. French government fell, Japan held out until Russia and Germany dogpiled them then finally collapsed, and not a moment too soon since I was on the verge of revolution myself. My economy and naval budget are now slightly larger than Spain's and nearly on par with Japan's. My battle fleet consists of 12 predreads, soon to be joined by some British-built BBs. Looking forward to building up for the next war. I also started a 1920 game as China (1935 looks a little too challenging for my liking). I can see why people think it's unplayable—it's certainly a lot less exciting if you're more interested in capital ships than light forces and small engagements. Well, I don't know if I would characterize it as fun. It is challenging and I enjoy trying to move through alternate history. |
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Post by Fredrik W on May 27, 2023 1:06:52 GMT -6
Honestly, I'm failing to see the issue here preventing China to have her own aircraft industry some time into the game. China had always the potential to become one of the big players in Asia. I think that was delayed historically for external and internal causes. But in a game like RTW, where we only take history as a starting point, I really don't see any problem here. Unless we want to say that they cannot have aircraft carriers either because they didn't get them before 1970. In fact I would say that taking history only as a starting point, is one of the great features that have made RTW. That is a good point. However, there is an additional reason in addition to Williams answer above. Having China develop aircraft would have required mechanisms in the game for when and under what circumstances production of indigenous arircaft could be started, and the performance of those early aircaft. It would have added to development and testing for a very specific case. It was much simpler to have no indigenous aircraft production, as that fitted well within the timeframe of the game. But I note the sentiments and we may add development of an aircraft industry to the game at a later stage. |
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