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Post by sobakaa on May 27, 2023 6:05:12 GMT -6
I don't like the fact that in my recent game, that so far progressed from 1890 to 1938 i've only seen a single war, not initiated by me. Japan took Formosa and that other Chinese island. They're also actively competing with the U.S. for the title of "The fastest island hopper of the Pacific", occupying 1/3 of them and even managed to get some stuff in Southeast Asia.
The same competition goes on between Italy and France in the Mediterranean, which would've put me, the player, in the red zone with the opposing nation, yet relations have been green across the board pretty much the entire time.
As far as i understand, the A.I. is given the same events as the player, so when it has the option to reduce tension it always chooses to do so? Maybe that's the right tactic, that's how i survived as Spain, but that's no fun to simply press the next turn button, knowing i have no way of catching up with the big dogs, as they're not fighting each other.
I guess my only option to provoke wars between the A.I.'s would be to look for a plausible moment and then edit nation relations in my current save, as i haven't seen anything related to it in the various text config files?
Edit: Even manually editing saves doesn't really do that much. Britain has taken Cuba so i thought it would be timely to start a war between them and the U.S. Unfortunately the war ended 3 months later with the only highlight being a single "indecisive engagement" with no losses...
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Post by arminpfano on May 27, 2023 9:37:36 GMT -6
I also didn´t encounter an AI war up to now (admittedly I only advanced to 1924 during my 70 hours in game, got carried away with the drawing tool too often...).
My theory: This depends on the frequency of the players wars. After a war ALL relations cool down to green, so the probability of two AI nations getting a problem is very low. I try everything to get into war ASAP, so there seems just no room for the other nations to develop tension.
My propoals:
1) I find it higly unrealistic that directly after a war relations between enemies get very good immediately. It would be more suitable if they get yellow with the peace treaty and then gradually improve over time. So if both enemies are still strong there would be a good possibility for a second war. If one side got very weak out of the war, the difference in strength would hinder new tension building (this seem to work properly in RTW3).
2) I find it very entertaining when I have to react to sudden and drastic changes in diplomacy ("colonial crisis" etc.). Maybe the probability of these events could be enhanced. This would also lead to more AI wars, I guess.
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Post by blarglol on May 27, 2023 14:28:15 GMT -6
I have seen some pretty vicious AI wars, it varies. I have seen Russia beat up Japan and sink 6-7 CAs and Bs in the 1890s. I have seen Germany and France trade everything from KEs to Bs back and forth.
It's true, I don't see as many as perhaps might be expected, and rarely more than 4 or 5 ships lost per side in a given engagement, but then again, the human player is usually more daring than the AI, hence our losses.
Look at how the AI fights most times we play against them, much less daring then us. A notable exception would be if the AI thinks it can trap you, which happened to me once against an enemy battleline where we battered each other but I had the upper hand in gunnery, only to have to turn and flee when a huge secondary enemy force of BCs appeared (hence the need to maintain scouts for situational awareness) trapping me between the two!
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Post by dia on May 27, 2023 14:46:12 GMT -6
Since tension values can randomly change, you could probably set up some kind of random number generator using an online tool that you could periodically run to increase the chance of AI wars happening by editing the save file using the values you get. Or you can edit the values however you wish, but at least the random number generator is less gamey.
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Post by sobakaa on May 27, 2023 18:47:47 GMT -6
I have seen some pretty vicious AI wars, it varies. I have seen Russia beat up Japan and sink 6-7 CAs and Bs in the 1890s. I have seen Germany and France trade everything from KEs to Bs back and forth. It's true, I don't see as many as perhaps might be expected, and rarely more than 4 or 5 ships lost per side in a given engagement, but then again, the human player is usually more daring than the AI, hence our losses. Look at how the AI fights most times we play against them, much less daring then us. A notable exception would be if the AI thinks it can trap you, which happened to me once against an enemy battleline where we battered each other but I had the upper hand in gunnery, only to have to turn and flee when a huge secondary enemy force of BCs appeared (hence the need to maintain scouts for situational awareness) trapping me between the two! I think the problem of Japan is their surprise attack mechanic. In all my wars with them, which, so far, is 4 they've launched a night attack, but either by luck or a programming oversight my defending force was about the same size, plus coastal batteries and later on aircraft. Plus for some reason Japanese bigger ships will all be sitting neatly in line, just waiting for your destroyers or torpedo bombers to destroy them. In that situation it's hard not to loose half the capital fleet and some screen. So far i've been doing it based on colonial conquest - if someone is grabbing a neutral country close to another major power they get a lot of negative relations. If i get a pop-up saying they ignored international coalition, etc. that would be an immediate war. I feel like running a random number generator on top of another generator we already got (admittedly a biased one) isn't going to change much. That already led to basically a World War scenario during my last war with Japan - they were allied to AH and Italy, while i was allied to Germany (at war with Britain, which i instigated after their tensions got to -15). U.S. at the time was at war with Spain (funnily enough that one was on the A.I.) and for some reason they decided to seek an alliance with me.
Sadly Japan, AH, Italy and Spain, even after losing their entire fleet and suffering hunger strikes every turn, didn't concede and about a year after that pesky revolutionary, that i planted into Italian government, managed to overthrow mine...
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Post by dorn on May 28, 2023 0:20:08 GMT -6
I also didn´t encounter an AI war up to now (admittedly I only advanced to 1924 during my 70 hours in game, got carried away with the drawing tool too often...). My theory: This depends on the frequency of the players wars. After a war ALL relations cool down to green, so the probability of two AI nations getting a problem is very low. I try everything to get into war ASAP, so there seems just no room for the other nations to develop tension. My propoals: 1) I find it higly unrealistic that directly after a war relations between enemies get very good immediately. It would be more suitable if they get yellow with the peace treaty and then gradually improve over time. So if both enemies are still strong there would be a good possibility for a second war. If one side got very weak out of the war, the difference in strength would hinder new tension building (this seem to work properly in RTW3). 2) I find it very entertaining when I have to react to sudden and drastic changes in diplomacy ("colonial crisis" etc.). Maybe the probability of these events could be enhanced. This would also lead to more AI wars, I guess. It is not relation, it is tension.  After ending the war there is almost no tension, nobody willing to go another war.
It depends how you play, if you take in most events choices for increasing budget, it usually means that it is because increased tensions so you are practically gearing for war which makes AI wars unlikely as you are the one that increase overall tension. We can look at that situation.
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w2c
Full Member
Posts: 178
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Post by w2c on May 28, 2023 1:31:47 GMT -6
Personally I agree that tensions dropping for everyone not involved in the war immediately after the player ending theirs is one of the main culprits and don't feel it all that realistic personally. Say me as GB gets into a scrap with Germany... Why would me and Germany making peace have any impact on Italy and Austria Hungary's tensions? It's silly to me honestly. Europe had a long history at this point of fighting amongst one another and playing Russian roulette with tensions. Sure the world wars and the tremendous toll they took on everyone involved started to sap them of that desire, but prior to WW1 everyone had a beef with basically everyone else. They were all playing fast and loose with alliances, trying to outmaneuver their opponents for the fights they were all seeking for one reason or another.
It's my opinion that alliances should be more fragile, and that tensions should persist for non combatant nations regardless of the player's wars. None of the powers of the day were going to just sit back and watch one of them gobble everything they wanted up without making moves of their own. That's a big part of why WW1 came to be in the first place. They all had their ambitions and right now the game isn't reflecting the AI's ambition at all.
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Post by arminpfano on May 28, 2023 6:09:52 GMT -6
It's my opinion that alliances should be more fragile, and that tensions should persist for non combatant nations regardless of the player's wars. None of the powers of the day were going to just sit back and watch one of them gobble everything they wanted up without making moves of their own. That's a big part of why WW1 came to be in the first place. They all had their ambitions and right now the game isn't reflecting the AI's ambition at all.
Very true.
At the moment all alliances are honored, so it seems an automatism for war entry. Maybe this could be loosened up, so there is some uncertainty if an ally really comes for help - or rather not, if the enemy is too frightening.
What I find nice is the move of weak nations to join in a war late and maybe grab a posession without real danger. There are historical cases like that, like Mussolini declaring war to France 1940.
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w2c
Full Member
Posts: 178
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Post by w2c on May 28, 2023 10:42:33 GMT -6
It's my opinion that alliances should be more fragile, and that tensions should persist for non combatant nations regardless of the player's wars. None of the powers of the day were going to just sit back and watch one of them gobble everything they wanted up without making moves of their own. That's a big part of why WW1 came to be in the first place. They all had their ambitions and right now the game isn't reflecting the AI's ambition at all.
Very true.
At the moment all alliances are honored, so it seems an automatism for war entry. Maybe this could be loosened up, so there is some uncertainty if an ally really comes for help - or rather not, if the enemy is too frightening.
What I find nice is the move of weak nations to join in a war late and maybe grab a posession without real danger. There are historical cases like that, like Mussolini declaring war to France 1940.
It's not just that all alliances are honored that bugs me on that front. It's how solidly those alliances are formed and how they appear to persist. Prior to WW1 which really solidified the alignments we're so familiar with today, they were actually in quite a state of flux. It was basically a big old game of musical chairs and alliances were shifting quite often. I'd personally like to see the possibility for alliances to break down more often than they currently appear to. To increase the chances that the AI won't honor an alliance when it's not in their interests to. And of course, to be more eager to get involved in situations which can result in them acquiring new gains, which is what each and every one of them were trying to do so desperately at the time. |
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Post by t3rm1dor on May 28, 2023 12:11:16 GMT -6
I really like the alliance feature, although I would like two additions: the ai to call allies in Ai vs Ai wars and that alliance chains are somewhat limited, as if a war isn't ended quickly it can turn into a one vs all scenario. There are also bugs in regards to how blockeages and force are calculated as separated things instead of adding then together.
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Post by dia on May 28, 2023 16:58:03 GMT -6
Very true.
At the moment all alliances are honored, so it seems an automatism for war entry. Maybe this could be loosened up, so there is some uncertainty if an ally really comes for help - or rather not, if the enemy is too frightening.
It definitely does not need to be loosened, I've had many allies refuse to come to my aide on several occasions. Once even saw GB spend years refusing to join a war against an extreme weak Soviet Union that had no Northern Europe possessions and was stuck in the Baltic. |
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w2c
Full Member
Posts: 178
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Post by w2c on May 28, 2023 17:02:04 GMT -6
Very true.
At the moment all alliances are honored, so it seems an automatism for war entry. Maybe this could be loosened up, so there is some uncertainty if an ally really comes for help - or rather not, if the enemy is too frightening.
It definitely does not need to be loosened, I've had many allies refuse to come to my aide on several occasions. Once even saw GB spend years refusing to join a war against an extreme weak Soviet Union that had no Northern Europe possessions and was stuck in the Baltic. He's referring to the AI joining each other I think. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2023 23:01:46 GMT -6
AI vs AI wars are just too fckin peaceful. I had 2 playthroughs as Germany in RtW3, and the results are: about 1 AI vs AI war each 10 to 15 years, which is OK, but there is a problem, most of those wars result in almost no ship losses and practically no areas changing owner. I mean it. For example a war between France and Britain, two of the biggest naval powers, lasted for 2 years. And what happened? France lost 1 CA and some smaller crap, GB lost 1 CA and some smaller crap. And all the remaining wars were pretty similar, or even smaller. Like a war between Italy and A-H empire, resulting in Italy losing a CL, and A-H losing 2 DDs.
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Post by sobakaa on May 29, 2023 2:49:36 GMT -6
Played another day with my self-invented rules and already had 2 world wars in the span of 5 years, both very tense for me as Russia at around 1905-1907 mark. First one was me and Germany vs. Italy, which was allied to A-H (which only came to the rescue 5 months later). Half way through USA decided to get into a security arrangement with me, even though i was at war, so they got gragged into it as well. The second one happened around my newly acquired Mediterranean possession in Sardinia. I managed to get an alliance with Great Britain, Germany was at war with France (again, and not even my doing), so i was all too happy to raise tension with France. Little did i know that they were allied to A-H (again), A-H was allied to Spain and Spain was an ally of Japan. USA took a break on this one. GB almost did too, only joined the war 5 months later. Took us 2 years to beat the blockaded French, everyone was starving and i barely made it with 7 unrest, France just crumbled faster because of the blockade. When Japan finally joined 1.5 years into the war i was ready to call white peace, tbh, as my entire fleet was fighting around Europe. Ended up being a bit more tense than i wished for  I don't know whether France acquired its A-H ally and all the subsequent chain of buddies along the road, or they were allies before the war, but A-H definitely didn't enter the war right away. As for AI losses, yes, they're not dramatic, but i've seen up to 2 B a CA and 2-3 DDs destroyed per AI battle. From my experience with auto-played battles, this level of losses is what AI usually goes for - it doesn't engage in destroyer rushes and tends to stay on the safe side. Overall losses for Germany from that war were 5 BBs, 3 CA's and many destroyers. Not an insignificant amount. So, i'm pretty happy now that i can force an occasional war here and there. Sure, would be better if the AI was more aggressive on its own, but i'll take what i can get. |
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Post by leisen on May 29, 2023 19:41:15 GMT -6
Is AI vs AI combat actually simulated? I thought it just randomly sinks one or two ships of each side.
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After ending the war there is almost no tension, nobody willing to go another war. 