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Post by saint19 on Dec 12, 2013 13:08:13 GMT -6
Good Afternoon,
Is there a way to isolate ship tracks? I don't have the game up just yet. But I'm having difficulty following the ship tracks at the end of a scenario. Is it possible to isolate ship tracks to individual ships? I realize this may not be possible and that there is the option of doing the big ships only. But I was curious as to a way to make it easier to follow.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 12, 2013 13:31:38 GMT -6
Tracks are for divisions, not ships. It would be possible to isolate the tracks of individual divisions I guess, turning them on and off. Not sure how much work that would be, but I can put it on the wish list.
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Post by julianbarker on Dec 12, 2013 15:13:41 GMT -6
The biggest problem for me in following tracks is working out direction, which can be hard if timestamps are unclear, and also seeing timings when the timestamp doesn't indicate date. For example, did the enemy just miss my trap, or did I close it a day late?
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Post by genchaos on Dec 12, 2013 17:44:49 GMT -6
I think the times on the ship tracks of the time of the day is not enough info. Need to add the day to the time or change the time to the start of the scenario. The best would be to actually have a dot or something that moves along the ships tracks.
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Post by vonfriedman on Dec 13, 2013 6:08:41 GMT -6
Also seems to me that these tracks could be shown in a clearer way. In most cases it is interesting to be able to see these tracks, but in some cases they highlight the mode of operation of the AI that the player is then attempted to exploit. I remember an operation in the Baltic during which a weak B division of mine was trying to avoid contact, moving up and down in a cove on the enemy coast, who I knew little frequented by enemy ships. After finishing the scenario I noticed that a powerful enemy force was in the vicinity and had moved up and down almost in the same way as my ships.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 13, 2013 11:55:53 GMT -6
Thanks for the suggestions on ship tracks! I will see what can be done in future upgrades.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 13, 2013 12:47:27 GMT -6
Thanks for the suggestions on ship tracks! I will see what can be done in future upgrades. FW:
Can you program into the pointer a system that when the pointer is placed on a ship, it provides a course heading in degrees, minutes and seconds? Is that something that might be more helpful than ship tracks.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 13, 2013 13:36:37 GMT -6
Do you really mean it would be useful to you to know the heading of your ships to a greater precision than degrees?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 13, 2013 14:04:33 GMT -6
Do you really mean it would be useful to you to know the heading of your ships to a greater precision than degrees? Well, one degree of latitude is about 69 miles, a minute is 1.15 miles and a second is 100 feet. I'd go for at least minutes. If you are off course, by one minute, then over one or two hours, it adds up.
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Post by randomizer on Dec 13, 2013 15:19:54 GMT -6
Do you really mean it would be useful to you to know the heading of your ships to a greater precision than degrees? Well, one degree of latitude is about 69 miles, a minute is 1.15 miles and a second is 100 feet. I'd go for at least minutes. If you are off course, by one minute, then over one or two hours, it adds up. The Steam and Iron world is round and so such navigational precision is of limited to no real utility in my opinion. In the SAI era, the typical angular measurement used in navigation was the Point, of which there are 32 in a circle. One point = ~11.25 degrees. Points were on occasion sub-divided into quarters: Scheer's famous SSE 3/4E order to the High Seas Fleet at Jutland for example. Here some precision was likely required as they were steering for the unmarked seaward end of the swept (an presumably mine free) Horn's Reef channel. As for being off course after a given distance (or time), since all navigation is done on the spherical surface of the earth, any constant course will eventually (sooner rather than later at high latitudes) require a correction as all courses are in fact curved; either an orthodrome (Great Circle - the shortest distance between any two points on the surface of a sphere where every meridian of longitude is intercepted at a different but calculated angle) or a loxodrome where every meridian is intercepted at the same angle. If you hold a fixed course in SAI you will very likely miss your objective as you would if you tried to do so in the real world. Gunners calculating firing data can pretend that the earth is flat and so precision in direction measuring is essential but this falls down at long range (still < 10 nm) and then even we need to acknowledge that the world is round (roughly at any rate) and there can be no straight lines on a curved surface so bearing corrections need to be applied. Angular measurements in SAI less than the 1-degree increments already provided seems like an excessive complication of doubtful utility in my opinion.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 13, 2013 16:10:32 GMT -6
Well, one degree of latitude is about 69 miles, a minute is 1.15 miles and a second is 100 feet. I'd go for at least minutes. If you are off course, by one minute, then over one or two hours, it adds up. The Steam and Iron world is round and so such navigational precision is of limited to no real utility in my opinion. In the SAI era, the typical angular measurement used in navigation was the Point, of which there are 32 in a circle. One point = ~11.25 degrees. Points were on occasion sub-divided into quarters: Scheer's famous SSE 3/4E order to the High Seas Fleet at Jutland for example. Here some precision was likely required as they were steering for the unmarked seaward end of the swept (an presumably mine free) Horn's Reef channel. As for being off course after a given distance (or time), since all navigation is done on the spherical surface of the earth, any constant course will eventually (sooner rather than later at high latitudes) require a correction as all courses are in fact curved; either an orthodrome (Great Circle - the shortest distance between any two points on the surface of a sphere where every meridian of longitude is intercepted at a different but calculated angle) or a loxodrome where every meridian is intercepted at the same angle. If you hold a fixed course in SAI you will very likely miss your objective as you would if you tried to do so in the real world. Gunners calculating firing data can pretend that the earth is flat and so precision in direction measuring is essential but this falls down at long range (still < 10 nm) and then even we need to acknowledge that the world is round (roughly at any rate) and there can be no straight lines on a curved surface so bearing corrections need to be applied. Angular measurements in SAI less than the 1-degree increments already provided seems like an excessive complication of doubtful utility in my opinion. It is hard for me to believe, that SAI is not built around the mariner's map, a flat Mercator projection, calibrated in degrees, minutes and seconds just like the navigators on board the ship. I understand boxing the compass, points etc. But if you are setting a course, you are going to set that course by degrees, minutes and seconds. I understand helm and rudder commands, but the navigator is far more precise in developing a base course. Did I miss something in my classes on inertial navigation? It isn't important, it was just an idea to make it more realistic. Forget it. Bye
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Post by saint19 on Dec 13, 2013 18:43:22 GMT -6
Interesting discussion but beyond my current scope of knowledge for sure. I was just wanting an easier time seeing ship tracks.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 14, 2013 1:34:59 GMT -6
SAI uses a round world as real ships navigate on a round world. As Randomizer says, if you keep a straight course and don't adjust you will miss your goal, in SAI just as in real world navigation. It is quite noticeable in SAI even in the relatively short distances in the North Sea. If you set a course say from the Helgoland Bight to Sunderland and just let your ships go straight ahead, after a while you will see that you are in fact heading towards a point a little off from Sunderland.
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Post by Rasputitsa on Dec 14, 2013 5:37:44 GMT -6
Moving fleets of dozens and sometimes scores of ships is not a precise art. Whatever goes on at the navigators chart is not what is being represented in the game, but more the real time judgment of the commander on the admiral's bridge, based mostly on limited information and with the never more than a cursory glance at the chart, or compass. SAI does a good job of representing the WW1 naval world, Jellicoe making decisions based on the sound of distant gunfire and imprecise reports, Scheer peering into the murk lit only by gun-flashes. With formations covering several square miles of sea, who cares whether the fleet track is a mile one way, or the other, it's where you are in relation to the enemy that counts.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 14, 2013 8:54:37 GMT -6
SAI uses a round world as real ships navigate on a round world. As Randomizer says, if you keep a straight course and don't adjust you will miss your goal, in SAI just as in real world navigation. It is quite noticeable in SAI even in the relatively short distances in the North Sea. If you set a course say from the Helgoland Bight to Sunderland and just let your ships go straight ahead, after a while you will see that you are in fact heading towards a point a little off from Sunderland. Hi FW: I am aware of your use, as in the old days of sailing of the Riemannian circle to navigate, and as you say, you have to have course corrections or you will miss your destination. In inertial navigation, you input your current location in degrees, minutes and seconds, your destination then three or four waypoints depending on the distance to travel. At each waypoint, course corrections will be made to travel successfully to the next waypoint. It's the same for surface navigation, which is where it was derived from. But, a navigator doesn't really do that, he uses a standard Mercator map, takes a reading of a nearby land form like a lighthouse on a point, then draws a straight line from that point on his map to the coordinates given for his destination. That line gives him his base course, and using variables like the wind, ocean currents and estimated speed of the ship derives arrival time. If you read the orders sent out by Jellicoe to the fleet, he provides specific coordinates for the meeting point. I am certain Beatty's chief navigator took a reading on the point as they exited the port and used that his current position.
This type of navigation is actually titled orthodrome navigation used for long distance surface navigation whereas for very short distances, loxodrome navigation. Since the former cuts meridians at varying angles, you have to do constant course corrections to maintain the line. It's the combined use of both, that is actually at work. All this can be and is represented by the Mercator projection map used by navigators and familiar to almost everyone.
It was just a suggestion, to give the newbies some realism. Thanks for listening.
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