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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 16, 2024 7:47:50 GMT -6
One caveat and I can't prove that the game will abide by this. Dive bombing is dangerous especially as AAA technology improves. light and medium AA guns like 20 and 30 mm along with 40mm are the key to reducing the risk from dive bombers. Of course, fighters are the key as they can intercept the bombers before they begin to make their attacks, but still, AA guns are dangerous. Conversely, if you wish to protect your ships, equip your carriers with many squadrons of fighters and your other ships with extensive AA guns. In theory, this should provide an onion based defensive system. Just my thoughts
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Post by abclark on Apr 16, 2024 9:17:42 GMT -6
Context: I'm looking at light cruisers with three 3" belt and 3" deck (and TPS3 or TPS4)!  My battleships are built around a 3" deck already - and I'd increase that to 4" but the game won't let me remove a turret during refit (to free up the required tonnage and increase the space available for AA guns). Oh, then 2-2.5 inches should give a well balanced design. Juggling a 3 inch belt and deck, especially on a light cruiser, can be difficult, although I run with 6 inch gunned CLs. If aircraft are your main priority, then a DP main armament is your friend, even though putting together Atlanta and Dido class cruisers are impossible right now. No three superimposed turrets for guns up to 5 inches yet, if ever. I've been using CLs with 6 twin 5" turrets (ABC WXY). Even if they're not superfiring they still count toward the HAA factor. |
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 27, 2024 21:51:46 GMT -6
What about level bombers? What amount of armour is sufficient against them - and if it's too much, how do you deal with them? In repeated tests I've found no evidence that fighters are effective, judging by the number of aircraft they shoot down, but that's with the caveat that I've never made it past about 1943 to the best of my recollection, and it's very difficult to say whether fighters are reducing incoming damage even without shooting down attackers - and I haven't done any tests in the current game version.
I've always assumed that fighters are more a liability than an asset, because they hardly shoot anything down (even compared with historical 1942 figures) and fuelled aircraft exploding in the hangar is the most common cause of death for carriers. Obviously, if there is any historical accuracy in the game, you would expect CAP to improve by the late 1940s, but that's beyond my experience.
For reference, I'm currently playing a USA campaign, allied with Spain and at 'total war' with Italy, so I'm in the peculiar position of having to go into the Med and fight a large enemy surface fleet without any medium bombers of my own.
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Post by attemptingsuccess on Apr 28, 2024 0:30:47 GMT -6
Post 1935 fighters are very good, as long as you have enough of them. Running ~50% fighters and max cap I have taken very few hits from incoming aircraft. AA is comparatively useless (AA provides a lot of dispersion, which makes missing more common, LAA especially so, so definitely take it.)
Level bombers just don't hit often enough for them to be too much of a problem :/.
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 28, 2024 2:24:32 GMT -6
Post 1935 fighters are very good, as long as you have enough of them. Running ~50% fighters and max cap I have taken very few hits from incoming aircraft. AA is comparatively useless (AA provides a lot of dispersion, which makes missing more common, LAA especially so, so definitely take it.) Level bombers just don't hit often enough for them to be too much of a problem :/. That's interesting. Are you referring to the latest update, or previous iterations? Here are two of my previous tests of all bomber wings (now my standard configuration) vs mixed fighter / bomber wings, in 1940 and 1941 respectively. In both cases, I control the mixed carriers and the AI controls the uniform ones; I order max cap at battle start, and because it's a fleet exercise, enemy bombers will always arrive while those fighters are still airborne. imgur.com/ToSCSSZimgur.com/4UC6OX1Obviously, these two tests alone are not representative, but it is at least clear that, firstly, air to air losses are inconsequential (in the first case, only 28 of 389 (7% of the total) enemy bombers were shot down by fighters, whereas 15 friendly fighters (10% of the total) were lost in exchange, and a larger number of enemy aircraft (37) were shot down by AA. Secondly, enemy bombers do get through in sufficient numbers to, in these two cases at least, win the battle - and that's with the relatively favourable conditions of a fleet exercise, where the player is controlling the fighters, and it's always a safe bet to send up all friendly fighters immediately. Note that I have not run any tests in the current game version. |
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Post by attemptingsuccess on Apr 28, 2024 21:40:13 GMT -6
Post 1935 fighters are very good, as long as you have enough of them. Running ~50% fighters and max cap I have taken very few hits from incoming aircraft. AA is comparatively useless (AA provides a lot of dispersion, which makes missing more common, LAA especially so, so definitely take it.) Level bombers just don't hit often enough for them to be too much of a problem :/. That's interesting. Are you referring to the latest update, or previous iterations? Here are two of my previous tests of all bomber wings (now my standard configuration) vs mixed fighter / bomber wings, in 1940 and 1941 respectively. In both cases, I control the mixed carriers and the AI controls the uniform ones; I order max cap at battle start, and because it's a fleet exercise, enemy bombers will always arrive while those fighters are still airborne. imgur.com/ToSCSSZimgur.com/4UC6OX1Obviously, these two tests alone are not representative, but it is at least clear that, firstly, air to air losses are inconsequential (in the first case, only 28 of 389 (7% of the total) enemy bombers were shot down by fighters, whereas 15 friendly fighters (10% of the total) were lost in exchange, and a larger number of enemy aircraft (37) were shot down by AA. Secondly, enemy bombers do get through in sufficient numbers to, in these two cases at least, win the battle - and that's with the relatively favourable conditions of a fleet exercise, where the player is controlling the fighters, and it's always a safe bet to send up all friendly fighters immediately. Note that I have not run any tests in the current game version. 1. What fighters are you running (they should be firepower 4+, which happens post 1935) 2. AA, especially LAA helps to prevent hits 3. Every other person I've talked to, especially on the RTW3 official-unofficial discord has stated that firepower 4+ fighters work to shoot down 4. AI ships don't run all bombers, so your fighters will be less overwhelmed against the actual opposition 5. I have never had fighters shoot down less than 80% of aircraft in a war Honestly very much a "every copy of RTW is unique" moment |
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 29, 2024 0:47:58 GMT -6
1. What fighters are you running (they should be firepower 4+, which happens post 1935) 2. AA, especially LAA helps to prevent hits 3. Every other person I've talked to, especially on the RTW3 official-unofficial discord has stated that firepower 4+ fighters work to shoot down 4. AI ships don't run all bombers, so your fighters will be less overwhelmed against the actual opposition 5. I have never had fighters shoot down less than 80% of aircraft in a war Honestly very much a "every copy of RTW is unique" moment Really? You're sure that fighters shoot down 80% of enemy aircraft? Do you mean that 80% of aircraft kills are scored by fighters, or do you mean that 8 out of every 10 aircraft attacking your carrier are shot down by defending fighters? In the 1940s? Unfortunately, the saves are long dead. I do know that I've run the tests in more than one save, meaning that the fighters on average were, presumably, average. Additionally, my test results have always been approximately matched when facing the AI in actual battle, since the AI as you say also uses a mixed wing. I'm intrigued enough by this to definitely try testing again. Maybe the game has simply changed since I last tested. Could you also run a test and we'll compare? |
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Post by attemptingsuccess on Apr 29, 2024 1:44:54 GMT -6
80% of kills in a war, taking data from the after war study of aircraft shot down
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 29, 2024 2:09:07 GMT -6
80% of kills in a war, taking data from the after war study of aircraft shot down Oh, well that may be inconsistent with the two above results, but it's not necessarily inconsistent with my understanding of the overall trend, which is merely that fighters are ineffective, not that they are less effective than AA. |
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Post by christian on Apr 29, 2024 11:41:07 GMT -6
4,5" will protect you from most bombs, 5" to be mostly immune from dive bombers, anything more is wasted weight
i tend to build 3,5" deck, because deck armor is very heavy, and provides adequate protection against 18" guns, that is protection out to 20k yards.
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