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Post by TheOtherPoster on Jul 23, 2024 8:57:26 GMT -6
As we cannot modernize submarines, they become obsolete very quickly. Realistically no nation, unless in dire need, would use operationally in a war in 1916 a 1904 sub (for example). It would be like murdering the crew. And as subs were cheap and quick to make, a trained crew was the most valuable part in a submarine (apart from the ethical issue, of course).
A way around it in the game could be to keep these old submarines active for some more years but only for training purposes. That would give some extra efficiency to the remaining operational, more modern submarines. Maybe the same or a bit better rate of sinking enemy merchant ships but with less operational loses (as our subs are fewer but more modern and with better trained crews)
One way of setting this up in the game could be if we are asked to decide if we want to keep 10%, 20% or none of our submarine fleet for training. The computer would automatically select the right number of subs among the older ones, and update it accordingly depending the increase or decrease of our total submarine fleet every month.
For example, against the same enemy forces:
No subs on training: Not very effective. Too high rate of sub loss also affects fleet morale. 10% subs on training: same rate of merchant ships sunk as previous but fewer of our own subs lost (fewer subs active as some are now on training duties but also better survival rate due to better crew through training)
20% subs on training: better rate of merchant ships sunk and better survival rate of our submarines.
This extra training would mean we have less submarine losses and maybe no at the beginning but over time we will sink more enemy merchant ships than without training. This extra training would also have some extra costs. Just an idea.
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Post by golingarf on Jul 23, 2024 14:46:54 GMT -6
Training in general doesn't exist in this game (except, sort of, for aircrews). The same idea actually applies to old surface vessels.
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Post by blarglol on Jul 23, 2024 14:54:45 GMT -6
Good idea but not sure how it would apply in a balanced manner to the AI. Maybe have them scrapped but "retired," i.e. used for training. If you "retire" so many subs within x amount of years, maybe you get a bonus to sub ops? But then again, ships have crew XP, as do air squadrons, but not subs. Not sure how to apply a flat modifier to sub effectiveness fairly based on an amount of old boats around, seems overly simplistic.
Alternately, perhaps have the the old subs work like museum ships. I haven't seen it yet in RTW3, but from what I remember in RTW2, the ship (usually a carrier or BB) would stay on your roster but be permanently and functionally useless. In a same way, training subs could stay on the sub list (up to a certain date, 10-15 years?) but not be counted as operational. Though...I'm sure something like this could easily create bugs that need quashing, to say nothing of having the AI use it..
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Post by golingarf on Jul 23, 2024 15:44:48 GMT -6
Good idea but not sure how it would apply in a balanced manner to the AI. Maybe have them scrapped but "retired," i.e. used for training. If you "retire" so many subs within x amount of years, maybe you get a bonus to sub ops? But then again, ships have crew XP, as do air squadrons, but not subs. Not sure how to apply a flat modifier to sub effectiveness fairly based on an amount of old boats around, seems overly simplistic. Alternately, perhaps have the the old subs work like museum ships. I haven't seen it yet in RTW3, but from what I remember in RTW2, the ship (usually a carrier or BB) would stay on your roster but be permanently and functionally useless. In a same way, training subs could stay on the sub list (up to a certain date, 10-15 years?) but not be counted as operational. Though...I'm sure something like this could easily create bugs that need quashing, to say nothing of having the AI use it.. Training was not the typical assignment of an old submarine anyway. Pre-WW2 US submarines served about 10 years and then were mothballed for around 8 years before being scrapped. The more convenient addition here would be an option to mothball submarines over 10 years old. |
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Post by blarglol on Jul 23, 2024 16:40:59 GMT -6
Good idea but not sure how it would apply in a balanced manner to the AI. Maybe have them scrapped but "retired," i.e. used for training. If you "retire" so many subs within x amount of years, maybe you get a bonus to sub ops? But then again, ships have crew XP, as do air squadrons, but not subs. Not sure how to apply a flat modifier to sub effectiveness fairly based on an amount of old boats around, seems overly simplistic. Alternately, perhaps have the the old subs work like museum ships. I haven't seen it yet in RTW3, but from what I remember in RTW2, the ship (usually a carrier or BB) would stay on your roster but be permanently and functionally useless. In a same way, training subs could stay on the sub list (up to a certain date, 10-15 years?) but not be counted as operational. Though...I'm sure something like this could easily create bugs that need quashing, to say nothing of having the AI use it.. Training was not the typical assignment of an old submarine anyway. Pre-WW2 US submarines served about 10 years and then were mothballed for around 8 years before being scrapped. The more convenient addition here would be an option to mothball submarines over 10 years old. Were any mothballed subs ever used? Not to my knowledge. In that case, simply scrap. |
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Post by golingarf on Jul 23, 2024 19:37:51 GMT -6
Training was not the typical assignment of an old submarine anyway. Pre-WW2 US submarines served about 10 years and then were mothballed for around 8 years before being scrapped. The more convenient addition here would be an option to mothball submarines over 10 years old. Were any mothballed subs ever used? Not to my knowledge. In that case, simply scrap. Yes. O- and R-class submarines spent 9 years in mothballs at the Philadelphia Navy Yard from 1931-1940 and then were reactivated for the war. |
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Post by TheOtherPoster on Jul 24, 2024 4:58:01 GMT -6
Yes, some of the R class were reactivated for some time when the US entered the war mainly to easy patrols near the US East coast or on secondary duties. Some O class were reactivated too and used for training, though. Although some subs could be used for training even during peace time too, like the previous N class before being sent for scrap, the most common situation during peace time was to temporary decommission older submarines. That way they could allocate the limited numbers of men available in peace time to the newer ships and also to save costs. Those subs would be scrapped after some time or reactivated in case of war. The point is that in an industrial war like WWI and WWII it’s much easier and faster to build submarines than training their crews. So it was common that old subs when reactivated would be used to train crews as fast as possible. The Germans kept lots of subs for training as they had a constant shortage of trained crews. Many of those subs were of course fairly new.
When I suggested to use our oldest subs for training was taking into account the game’s limitations. Mainly that we cannot modernize submarines as they age, or use them for secondary, less demanding duties. We can only use them as any other sub or scrap them. But it’s not the same to use our old submarine to patrol our own coast in search of the odd surfaced enemy uboat that we can catch by surprise or just radio its location, than to use them against enemy convoys well protected by destroyers and cruisers or to use them near the enemy coast where they can be quickly located and attacked by the enemy. Of course we would use our best most modern subs for the more demanding tasks. But the game does not make any distinction. I thought a way to mimic this use of old subs in secondary less demanding tasks in the game could be to assign the older ones for training as that way they would also reflect the increased need for training when at war. For example, a way to mimic the activation of old subs when at war and their use in training and other secondary tasks could be a bit like the Training Priorities mechanic: during peace time we could decide to keep 0%, 10% or 20% of our submarine fleet (the older ones) in reserve/mothball, saving money. That very same % would automatically be activated and used for training once war starts. The training % would modify our operational subs’ effectiveness and survival. But blarglol is right, such a set up may be too complicated for the AI to handle properly and would give us more bugs. I really don't know. But I still think that as we cannot modernize subs and we cannot separate between high risk and secondary duties for them, a system should be created to try not to use old subs the same way as if they were the latest model.
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Post by golingarf on Jul 24, 2024 7:45:03 GMT -6
Yes, some of the R class were reactivated for some time when the US entered the war mainly to easy patrols near the US East coast or on secondary duties. Some O class were reactivated too and used for training, though. Although some subs could be used for training even during peace time too, like the previous N class before being sent for scrap, the most common situation during peace time was to temporary decommission older submarines. That way they could allocate the limited numbers of men available in peace time to the newer ships and also to save costs. Those subs would be scrapped after some time or reactivated in case of war. The point is that in an industrial war like WWI and WWII it’s much easier and faster to build submarines than training their crews. So it was common that old subs when reactivated would be used to train crews as fast as possible. The Germans kept lots of subs for training as they had a constant shortage of trained crews. Many of those subs were of course fairly new.
When I suggested to use our oldest subs for training was taking into account the game’s limitations. Mainly that we cannot modernize submarines as they age, or use them for secondary, less demanding duties. We can only use them as any other sub or scrap them. But it’s not the same to use our old submarine to patrol our own coast in search of the odd surfaced enemy uboat that we can catch by surprise or just radio its location, than to use them against enemy convoys well protected by destroyers and cruisers or to use them near the enemy coast where they can be quickly located and attacked by the enemy. Of course we would use our best most modern subs for the more demanding tasks. But the game does not make any distinction. I thought a way to mimic this use of old subs in secondary less demanding tasks in the game could be to assign the older ones for training as that way they would also reflect the increased need for training when at war. For example, a way to mimic the activation of old subs when at war and their use in training and other secondary tasks could be a bit like the Training Priorities mechanic: during peace time we could decide to keep 0%, 10% or 20% of our submarine fleet (the older ones) in reserve/mothball, saving money. That very same % would automatically be activated and used for training once war starts. The training % would modify our operational subs’ effectiveness and survival. But blarglol is right, such a set up may be too complicated for the AI to handle properly and would give us more bugs. I really don't know. But I still think that as we cannot modernize subs and we cannot separate between high risk and secondary duties for them, a system should be created to try not to use old subs the same way as if they were the latest model.
Again, though, it is really like this with all ships. Working up times are unrealistically fast, and there is no real way to set a ship to second rate duties. (TP isn't really it, and RF just makes the ship do nothing.) Modelling crew training would be a significant revision to the game. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, necessarily, but if they do, it should probably be systematic, and not just a submarine quirk. |
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