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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 12, 2016 17:38:13 GMT -6
Well, if that isn't due to varied tech, then it looks like a bug to me. You should be able to build a BB with the tech level you have achieved. Hmnm. OK. Meanwhile, I was tinkering with this some more. It turns out I can make a 3-turret CA without the game throwing a fit and saying it's really a BC, provided the guns are no bigger than 10". If I put 11" or bigger on it, then the game says it's a BC. But I can't make a 3-turret B at all, regardless of gun caliber. For instance, here's a 3-turret CA, which to all intents and purposes is a weak BC. The game has no problem with this.
---------------------------------------------- EDIT: Hmm, if I reduce the B's guns to 10", then it stays a B and the game is happy. It still won't let me build a BB, but I can make a 6x 10" B. With 11" or bigger guns, a 3-turret battleship is classified as a BB and the game won't let me build it. Most of what you described seems to me to be consistent with the design rules in the manual. Appendix 1 on page 23 of the 1.23 manual. CA's can have 3 or more turrets (assuming you have the tech) as long as they are 10" (the manual says 11" but the manual seems to be a little out of date) guns or less. Pre-dreadnoughts can not have more than 2 main turrets. Some of the rules in the manual may be obsolete considering info that was put out in "8x8" AI only" thread and the 10" vs. 11" gun for CA's that you describe but for the battleships you seem to be running into the listed differences between B and BB's.
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Post by tbr on Sept 13, 2016 18:27:37 GMT -6
I am currently playing a game with TechQuirk=5. I have no idea what this does, had no popup that I remember and cannot recognize any effect. In the save game (RTWGameX in save folder number X) there is a new field TechQuirk. It seems to correspond to varied tech. Values I know: TechQuirk=3 seems to be bad twin and triple turrets, and
TechQuirk=4 is low penetration on guns
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Post by tbr on Sept 14, 2016 14:51:49 GMT -6
OK, I have got some idea now for TechQuirk=5. It seems to result in massively less efficient engines, i.e. you need significantly more engine weight per horsepower.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Sept 14, 2016 16:08:38 GMT -6
Thanks for investigating this, tbr.
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Post by ccip on Sept 15, 2016 0:20:36 GMT -6
One quick thought - in my recent game I got "single turrets are more efficient than double or triple", but the designs the game generates for me and the AI are still overwhelmingly in multi-gun turrets and the weight savings for them are still obvious.
Maybe one good way to make the difference clearer would be to add a weight penalty to those turrets rather than only ROF/reliability? I think that would help decide construction priority.
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 15, 2016 6:56:11 GMT -6
I've just found some more strange things. I had Ship Design 3, the 3rd level of which was 3 centerline turrets. This didn't let me build dreadnoughts to start with, although it eventually sorted itself out after multiple game restarts, as outline above. So this is the background situation. Over the next year, I rapidly got 3 more levels of Ship Design, for a total of 6. In order, these were: - Superimposed X turret
- Superimposed B turret
- Main battery wing turrets
HOWEVER, I couldn't use any of those things to start with, either. Again, it took multiple restarts of the game before any of these things became available. In addition, my research tab still shows "Superimposed B turret" instead of wing turrets, even though I can now use wing turrets.
In both cases where the availability of new tech didn't happen until later, I had to build a ship of some sort first, without the new tech. It wasn't just restarting the game that made the new tech available. This is a bit frustrating, because obviously I don't want to build any more ships without the new tech.
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 15, 2016 7:20:32 GMT -6
I can't speak for the rest of your post because I'm not seeing those issues. I can tell you though that the reason you are seeing the superimposed B turret tech even though it's not the most recent tech researched is because it is the most "advanced". I'm assuming this is a USA game. Main battery wing turrets is like the level 4 tech. Super-X and B are level 6 and 9 techs that you get for free randomly (I say randomly but it doesn't happen until after 3 centerline is researched) because they are the bonus techs for the USA. The research screen only displays the most "advanced" tech you have researched until you go to the detail screen. That means you won't see the most recent tech discovered if they were researched or discovered out of order. They should all be listed in the detail screen though and the tech level number should go up because that is just the total number of techs discovered in that area.
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Post by tbr on Sept 15, 2016 10:17:50 GMT -6
Superimposed turrets only become viable for CA after the specific tech "superimposed turrets for CA" is researched, like things apply to CL and DD. Were you trying to implement those turrets on a CA? Sometimes one gets "Main Battery Wing turrets" before "medium wing turrets", possibly even before "heavy secondary battery", you need all three for wing turrets greater than 10inch on BB and BC. I've just found some more strange things. I had Ship Design 3, the 3rd level of which was 3 centerline turrets. This didn't let me build dreadnoughts to start with, although it eventually sorted itself out after multiple game restarts, as outline above. So this is the background situation. Over the next year, I rapidly got 3 more levels of Ship Design, for a total of 6. In order, these were: - Superimposed X turret
- Superimposed B turret
- Main battery wing turrets
HOWEVER, I couldn't use any of those things to start with, either. Again, it took multiple restarts of the game before any of these things became available. In addition, my research tab still shows "Superimposed B turret" instead of wing turrets, even though I can now use wing turrets.
In both cases where the availability of new tech didn't happen until later, I had to build a ship of some sort first, without the new tech. It wasn't just restarting the game that made the new tech available. This is a bit frustrating, because obviously I don't want to build any more ships without the new tech.
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Post by tbr on Sept 15, 2016 10:18:52 GMT -6
Sometimes the tech description implies instant availability but there are additional requirements in earlier techs. Superimposed turrets only become viable for CA after the specific tech "superimposed turrets for CA" is researched, like things apply to CL and DD. Were you trying to implement those turrets on a CA? Sometimes one gets "Main Battery Wing turrets" before "medium wing turrets", possibly even before "heavy secondary battery", you need all three for wing turrets greater than 10inch on BB and BC. I've just found some more strange things. I had Ship Design 3, the 3rd level of which was 3 centerline turrets. This didn't let me build dreadnoughts to start with, although it eventually sorted itself out after multiple game restarts, as outline above. So this is the background situation. Over the next year, I rapidly got 3 more levels of Ship Design, for a total of 6. In order, these were: - Superimposed X turret
- Superimposed B turret
- Main battery wing turrets
HOWEVER, I couldn't use any of those things to start with, either. Again, it took multiple restarts of the game before any of these things became available. In addition, my research tab still shows "Superimposed B turret" instead of wing turrets, even though I can now use wing turrets.
In both cases where the availability of new tech didn't happen until later, I had to build a ship of some sort first, without the new tech. It wasn't just restarting the game that made the new tech available. This is a bit frustrating, because obviously I don't want to build any more ships without the new tech.
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 15, 2016 11:59:46 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification. tbr No, I wasn't trying to build a CA, I was trying to build a BB. It seems to me that something somewhere in the game's state has to change before newly researched tech becomes available in the ship designer. Either you have to advance time 1 turn, build a new ship, or move an existing one. Until such a thing happens, the ship designer doesn't seem to update what tech is and is not available to it, even if the tech supposedly became available earlier in that same turn. IOW, the sequence of play is like this: - You hit the "Turn" button and time advances to the next month.
- The next turn's "Events Phase" happens. All the pop-ups with decisions to make, research reports, battles occur, and the news of world events happen. Closing the last of these starts the next phase.
- The "Player Actions" phase is now in progress. This is where you're able to give movement orders and design/build ships. This phase lasts as long as you want, ending only when you hit the "Turn" button again.
OK, so say the Boffins invent something new, like a new way of arranging guns, in the Events Phase. As soon as I get the change in the Player Actions phase of the same turn, I try to build a ship with the new feature and the feature is unavailable. However, I build a ship without the new feature, then come back to the ship designer, the new feature will be available that turn. Otherwise, it will become available on the next turn. Is this the way it works normally? If so, then this isn't a Varied Tech problem but a general problem.
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Post by tbr on Sept 15, 2016 14:59:13 GMT -6
Ah, I begin to get it. You are using the autodesign button? I for one never had the kind of probems you describe, but I nearly always desing either from scratch or from my old designs. Thanks for the clarification. tbr No, I wasn't trying to build a CA, I was trying to build a BB. It seems to me that something somewhere in the game's state has to change before newly researched tech becomes available in the ship designer. Either you have to advance time 1 turn, build a new ship, or move an existing one. Until such a thing happens, the ship designer doesn't seem to update what tech is and is not available to it, even if the tech supposedly became available earlier in that same turn. IOW, the sequence of play is like this: - You hit the "Turn" button and time advances to the next month.
- The next turn's "Events Phase" happens. All the pop-ups with decisions to make, research reports, battles occur, and the news of world events happen. Closing the last of these starts the next phase.
- The "Player Actions" phase is now in progress. This is where you're able to give movement orders and design/build ships. This phase lasts as long as you want, ending only when you hit the "Turn" button again.
OK, so say the Boffins invent something new, like a new way of arranging guns, in the Events Phase. As soon as I get the change in the Player Actions phase of the same turn, I try to build a ship with the new feature and the feature is unavailable. However, I build a ship without the new feature, then come back to the ship designer, the new feature will be available that turn. Otherwise, it will become available on the next turn. Is this the way it works normally? If so, then this isn't a Varied Tech problem but a general problem.
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 15, 2016 15:33:05 GMT -6
Ah, I begin to get it. You are using the autodesign button? I for one never had the kind of probems you describe, but I nearly always desing either from scratch or from my old designs. The problem I'm having with not being able to use just-announced tech advances in the designer in the same turn they are announced is regardless of whether I go from scratch or auto-design. I never use auto-designed ships. But I do like to create an auto-design as a starting point. That way, I can be pretty sure all the boxes are filled. Sometimes I overlook a few details if I go straight from scratch. So I start with an auto-design and then change everything
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Post by rockmedic109 on Sept 15, 2016 17:37:38 GMT -6
I use auto-design, but only to create superstructures. I am not artistically gifted enough to do them on my own. I'd try to create something like CB Alaska or CA Prinz Eugen and it'll come looking like a horribly deformed piece of half-sunk driftwood. A RTW version of Charlie Brown's Christmas tree but with less charm that no amount of ornamentation can make rise above the level of eye-sore.
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Post by galagagalaxian on Oct 10, 2016 20:09:50 GMT -6
So has anyone made any more discoveries regarding varied tech? Anyone ever figure out what the inefficient multi-gun turrets was manifesting as?
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chz
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by chz on Oct 11, 2016 4:48:18 GMT -6
Unlike the poor penetration feature, I haven't found any tech that "cures" the turret issue. Not before 1925, at least (though I was actually at 1950 with 50% research, which should get you more tech than 1925/100% due to more trading). My double turrets still had a high failure rate, and the AI's penchant for quad turrets left it a sitting duck most of the time. Which is the real downside to varied tech - the AI is unable to cope with it. I'd definitely advise playing minor nations with varied tech.
I know of bad torpedoes, bad shells and bad turrets. Are there any others? And I know the bad shells go away at a certain tech level - do any of the others?
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