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Post by director on Nov 25, 2016 0:40:32 GMT -6
You'd have to add in at least part of the weight of an aircraft in the case of a kamikaze strike, I think.
I'd differ only on one point, and that is that Princeton was destroyed by a kamikaze hit (as were a couple of escort carriers I think but I'm not counting them) and Franklin and Bunker Hill were effectively wrecked past repair by kamikazes. I know that at least one if not both were eventually rebuilt but neither ever returned to service. Had the damage happened in 1942-43 I think they would have been, but by 44-45 it was easier to just complete a few more of the Essex-class that would otherwise have been scrapped.
I do think you are right in crediting Japanese torpedo planes as being their preferred (and best) striking arm, whereas the US preferred dive-bombers.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 25, 2016 8:31:41 GMT -6
You'd have to add in at least part of the weight of an aircraft in the case of a kamikaze strike, I think. I'd differ only on one point, and that is that Princeton was destroyed by a kamikaze hit (as were a couple of escort carriers I think but I'm not counting them) and Franklin and Bunker Hill were effectively wrecked past repair by kamikazes. I know that at least one if not both were eventually rebuilt but neither ever returned to service. Had the damage happened in 1942-43 I think they would have been, but by 44-45 it was easier to just complete a few more of the Essex-class that would otherwise have been scrapped. I do think you are right in crediting Japanese torpedo planes as being their preferred (and best) striking arm, whereas the US preferred dive-bombers. I should have mentioned the kamikaze strikes but he asked for bombs. Both of the two mentioned were decommissioned but Bunker Hill was used at North Island as a Navy Electronics Test Ship. She was moored on a pier at the end of the North/South runway. I used to pass her on the way to the Test Line. I have to agree that, had they been damaged in 1942 time frame, they would have both been repaired, but the Essex were coming off the line fast and furious so why bother.
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Post by director on Nov 25, 2016 12:34:13 GMT -6
One writer (I do not remember the name) compared a kamikaze to a human-piloted cruise missile, and I think that's apt.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 25, 2016 12:39:02 GMT -6
One writer (I do not remember the name) compared a kamikaze to a human-piloted cruise missile, and I think that's apt. It was similar to the current cruise missile. In fact, much of how we deal with cruise missiles has been derived from our experiences with kamikaze. Cruise missiles are much faster and far more accurate, but the principle is the same actually. The warheads on the current missiles can be 1000 lbs. which is heavier than the 550's generally used on the D3 Val and A6M5 Zero's. Many of the Russian cruise missiles have much heavier warhead but are also easier to kill. The cruise missiles also have longer ranges generally.
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Post by axe99 on Nov 25, 2016 14:20:48 GMT -6
Cheers @oldpop, thanks for that . If the largest the US carriers had to cope with were 550lb bombs, then they were never really tested by dive bombers the way the British (or Japanese) carriers were, which makes comparisons of survivability to bomb attack much harder, and probably one of the reasons these kinds of conversations won't be over until the distant future when someone who is ridiculously wealthy has enough money to build two real-life replicas, bomb them and see what happens, lol. Edit: Sorry, didn't see the conversation had carried onto another page. Deffo agree Kamikazes important as well, cheers for your and Directors well-informed posts, and apologies for my relative cluelessness .
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Post by steel selachian on Nov 25, 2016 16:33:15 GMT -6
You'd have to add in at least part of the weight of an aircraft in the case of a kamikaze strike, I think. I'd differ only on one point, and that is that Princeton was destroyed by a kamikaze hit (as were a couple of escort carriers I think but I'm not counting them) and Franklin and Bunker Hill were effectively wrecked past repair by kamikazes. I know that at least one if not both were eventually rebuilt but neither ever returned to service. Had the damage happened in 1942-43 I think they would have been, but by 44-45 it was easier to just complete a few more of the Essex-class that would otherwise have been scrapped. I do think you are right in crediting Japanese torpedo planes as being their preferred (and best) striking arm, whereas the US preferred dive-bombers. Princeton was actually done in by a single bomb dropped by a D4Y "Judy" dive bomber; it went through the flight deck and hangar and while structural damage wasn't bad it started an avgas fire. Damage control teams tried to fight the fires for about eight hours, but were unsuccessful (the light cruiser Birmingham, which was alongside attempting to fight the fires, took damage from an ordnance explosion and actually suffered more casualties than Princeton). It still took torpedoes fired by escorts to sink her after the order was given to abandon ship. It's worth noting however that Princeton was a 13,000-ton CVL based on a Cleveland-class light cruiser hull and thus more vulnerable than an Essex-class CV with over twice the displacement; as a design compromise the munitions stowage was on the hangar deck level and thus more vulnerable to bomb damage. Franklin was also not struck by a kamikaze; again it was a dive bomber that somehow got through and dropped two 550-lb semi-AP bombs. At the time she had 31 fueled and armed aircraft on the flight deck awaiting takeoff and another 16 aircraft being fueled and armed in the hangar. The aft fueling system was still active at the time the bombs hit. She was basically hit at the worst possible time and I doubt an armored flight deck would have helped much.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 25, 2016 19:04:25 GMT -6
You'd have to add in at least part of the weight of an aircraft in the case of a kamikaze strike, I think. I'd differ only on one point, and that is that Princeton was destroyed by a kamikaze hit (as were a couple of escort carriers I think but I'm not counting them) and Franklin and Bunker Hill were effectively wrecked past repair by kamikazes. I know that at least one if not both were eventually rebuilt but neither ever returned to service. Had the damage happened in 1942-43 I think they would have been, but by 44-45 it was easier to just complete a few more of the Essex-class that would otherwise have been scrapped. I do think you are right in crediting Japanese torpedo planes as being their preferred (and best) striking arm, whereas the US preferred dive-bombers. Princeton was actually done in by a single bomb dropped by a D4Y "Judy" dive bomber; it went through the flight deck and hangar and while structural damage wasn't bad it started an avgas fire. Damage control teams tried to fight the fires for about eight hours, but were unsuccessful (the light cruiser Birmingham, which was alongside attempting to fight the fires, took damage from an ordnance explosion and actually suffered more casualties than Princeton). It still took torpedoes fired by escorts to sink her after the order was given to abandon ship. It's worth noting however that Princeton was a 13,000-ton CVL based on a Cleveland-class light cruiser hull and thus more vulnerable than an Essex-class CV with over twice the displacement; as a design compromise the munitions stowage was on the hangar deck level and thus more vulnerable to bomb damage. Franklin was also not struck by a kamikaze; again it was a dive bomber that somehow got through and dropped two 550-lb semi-AP bombs. At the time she had 31 fueled and armed aircraft on the flight deck awaiting takeoff and another 16 aircraft being fueled and armed in the hangar. The aft fueling system was still active at the time the bombs hit. She was basically hit at the worst possible time and I doubt an armored flight deck would have helped much. Franklin was actually hit four different times; 13 October 1944, 15 October 1944, 30 October 1944 and finally, 19 March 1945. The first and third were by suicide aircraft, the last was by two bombs at about 25 degrees from the horizontal, it her almost simultaneously. The first was an SAP with 133 lbs. of explosive which struck the flight deck to port of the centerline frame 68. The second was a 250 kg GP which struck the flight deck near the after elevator and penetrated into the hangar. Fuel lines were ruptured by the last explosion. The deck was full ready for a launch. This means all were armed and engines running with one dive bomber forward for its take off run. There were 5 VB's each with two 250 LBS bombs and two 500 lbs. bombs, 14 VT's with each with four 500 lbs. bombs and twelve VFB with one tiny time rocket(11.75 inches). The hangar had 11 VF not armed but gassed, 5 VFB's each with a tiny Tims, the other six aircraft were not gassed and armed. They were in the after part of the hangar. Needless to say, bad time to hit the Franklin. www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/w/war-damage-reports/uss-franklin-cv-13-war-damage-report-no-56.html
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Post by director on Nov 25, 2016 22:23:23 GMT -6
@steel selachian - that's what I get for going by memory instead of reference books. The point remains, however, that they were not destroyed by torpedoes. Technically, Princeton was - but she was unsalvageable and the cause for that was, as you say, the bomb hit.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 25, 2017 10:49:38 GMT -6
Here is an interesting similarity: The first drawing is self explanatory, it was used by the Naval War College in their war games circa 1933. The second is the Kiev Class AA carrier.
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Post by firefox178 on Jan 25, 2017 12:19:06 GMT -6
Interesting. Since this is the aircraft carrier thread, I was thinking that seaplane carriers could be used as the center for some sort of search and rescue operations of downed pilots. This way seaplane carriers could have use aside from asw. They could use a similar system in RTW 1 where you rescue survivors from sunk ships. And it would also add a major factor that, historically, played a key role in the weakening of the naval air arm of the IJN. Namely losing skilled pilots due to the inability of them being rescued. It would also play to the seaplanes strengths mainly: spotting, endurance and the ability to land on water to pick up pilots. I specifically picked the seaplanes because I remembered how the survivors of the CA Indianapolis were rescued.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 25, 2017 12:36:11 GMT -6
Interesting. Since this is the aircraft carrier thread, I was thinking that seaplane carriers could be used as the center for some sort of search and rescue operations of downed pilots. This way seaplane carriers could have use aside from asw. They could use a similar system in RTW 1 where you rescue survivors from sunk ships. And it would also add a major factor that, historically, played a key role in the weakening of the naval air arm of the IJN. Namely losing skilled pilots due to the inability of them being rescued. It would also play to the seaplanes strengths mainly: spotting, endurance and the ability to land on water to pick up pilots. I specifically picked the seaplanes because I remembered how the survivors of the CA Indianapolis were rescued. Air/Sea Rescue was generally, during the Pacific War accomplished by PBY-5 or PBM seaplanes that were based either on an island or with a seaplane tender. The tenders generally were purpose built but some were conversions of other classes like the Clemson class destroyers. They were classified as AVD's. The PBM's did not come aboard but the later classes of tenders did have a hanger for maintenance and a large flat stern to house the seaplanes. Many times older ships in another class were converted to seaplane tenders. The PBY's had many uses besides search and rescue. These included mining, aerial reconnaissance, photographic intelligence, ELINT, harassment, ASW patrols, special troop insertions and VIP transport. Some of the land based locations for these aircraft were: Tulagi, Perth, Darwin, Surabya, Cavite, Midway, Pearl Harbor, Dutch Harbor, Seattle, San Diego and Coco Solo. My father used to take hops as a gunner on Guadalcanal because it was cooler at 5000 feet than on the ground at the island. There were seaplanes carriers and tenders in WWI so it is possible that they could and were used to track down submarines, fleet scouts, air/sea rescue and supply deliveries etc. as they were used in WWII.
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Post by firefox178 on Jan 26, 2017 4:47:38 GMT -6
Thanks for the information. I hope they implement something similar in the game. It would add variety and extend the value of obsolete ships.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 26, 2017 8:16:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the information. I hope they implement something similar in the game. It would add variety and extend the value of obsolete ships. I am sure they will introduce the research into amphibious aircraft, be it floatplanes or seaplanes.
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Post by bcoopactual on Jan 26, 2017 11:14:22 GMT -6
You've kinda moved past this so I apologize but thought I'd throw out that according to this website, www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/us_fleet.htm#cv13 both Franklin and Bunker Hill were repaired to full capability despite never being returned to service. The Navy held them in reserve to have carriers available in excellent condition for an "ultimate" conversion that eventually never happened.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 26, 2017 12:19:56 GMT -6
You've kinda moved past this so I apologize but thought I'd throw out that according to this website, www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/us_fleet.htm#cv13 both Franklin and Bunker Hill were repaired to full capability despite never being returned to service. The Navy held them in reserve to have carriers available in excellent condition for an "ultimate" conversion that eventually never happened. There were so many Essex class carriers, the long hulls, available that it really made no sense to keep these two in the active fleet. I used to pass the Bunker Hill on my way to the Test Line at North Island. She was docked at a small pier and used by NEL for electronics research. Then she disappeared. She never looked different from her pictures except for a few extra antennas.
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