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Post by theexecuter on Aug 27, 2017 19:04:29 GMT -6
Looks like you have some good choices for ships!
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Post by parrot on Aug 27, 2017 20:05:02 GMT -6
I will also say that I was tempted to lay down a couple ships to the Kiangnan Shipyard B1901B design since I've never played with battleships that small before, but as they're objectively the least capable of any of the proposed vessels and as they take by far the longest time to build (34 months as opposed to 25-29 months for any of the other coastal or first-class battleship proposals) I just couldn't justify it despite the short-term economy they offer. I don't blame you. The problem is that they really have no use in RTW as it is currently structured. With a Steam & Iron type of control over your fleet, you could have greater control over where they would be used, and so they might be a more reasonable purchase (as a convoy defence ship, for example), but as it currently stands they would just be a hopelessly underpowered ship that had to fight with enemy battleships.
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Post by aeson on Aug 27, 2017 21:03:24 GMT -6
I will also say that I was tempted to lay down a couple ships to the Kiangnan Shipyard B1901B design since I've never played with battleships that small before, but as they're objectively the least capable of any of the proposed vessels and as they take by far the longest time to build (34 months as opposed to 25-29 months for any of the other coastal or first-class battleship proposals) I just couldn't justify it despite the short-term economy they offer. I don't blame you. The problem is that they really have no use in RTW as it is currently structured. With a Steam & Iron type of control over your fleet, you could have greater control over where they would be used, and so they might be a more reasonable purchase (as a convoy defence ship, for example), but as it currently stands they would just be a hopelessly underpowered ship that had to fight with enemy battleships. As it happens, they might not have been as poor of a choice as you'd think; suffice to say that no fewer than 14 battleships - including two which had literally be laid down the previous turn - were scrapped worldwide due to the Hague Naval Treaty of 1901 which was signed in September. (Sorry, babylon, but that includes Yueh Fei - KAW Schlactschiff 1901A.) I'll post a proper update sometime tomorrow, but here's the Almanac for January 1903 (with some added information on the Chinese Navy's financial situation). The treaty limit is 15,000t and 10" guns. On a more positive note, Chinese domestic industry can now produce 13,000t ships and 9"/Q0 guns, so parrot won't be at as significant of a disadvantage for the next design competition, whatever it ends up being. I'd've stopped sooner to post an update and design competition, but the Navy had under ¥5M in reserve funds and a surplus of only about ¥200-300k/month until mid-1902 when most of the new construction came off the ways and I wanted to build up a bit of a reserve before asking for new designs. Anyways, I'm interested in hearing the opinions of the Navy's political advisors on how we should proceed - shall we issue a new requirement for a battleship despite the limitations imposed on the vessel's capabilities by the treaty, or do we try to supplement our two armored cruisers with newer, presumably better vessels, or do we do something else? I'm interested in hearing opinions and rationales, but remember - Imperial China is not a democracy. There will be no official vote, and the Naval Minister (me) does not promise to abide by the majority recommendation, should any such thing be reached. Save file, in case any of you want to poke around before offering an opinion on how the Navy should proceed: Game4.zip (693.19 KB)
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Post by parrot on Aug 27, 2017 22:20:10 GMT -6
Eh, even still, the money spent on my B's probably would've been better saved to spend elsewhere.
I would personally recommend a new CA. 15,000t is a fine tonnage limit, barely a limit at all, but 10" guns means its not really worth building any. China is well stocked with CLs, despite having a very low budget (which is good), and I think there's a good number of DDs available, so adding to the two CAs currently available would be best.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Aug 28, 2017 3:19:29 GMT -6
The Serpent Palace agrees that new armored cruisers be developed, and they should be fast. Imagine a fast capital ship with many guns when mighty engines in greater hulls are harnessed. The new cruiser should have the pace to flee such a creature, or its service life will be scant. A ~26 knot large cruiser would serve well to scout for the fleet and chase down raiders, and perhaps eventually serve our future empire in foreign seas.
Building battleships during the treaty period seems an unwise consideration, unless time or the Empress comes to demand it.
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Post by babylon218 on Aug 28, 2017 3:56:14 GMT -6
I agree with the arguments for at least one new armoured cruiser. This cruiser should be designed to make maximum use of the treaty limits if possible, offering a powerful ship which can either be heavily armoured, heavily armed or very fast. Practically speaking, most designs will be limited to a maximum speed of 23kn (the displacement required for a 24kn ship would be very high and very expensive in cost), but with 10" guns we may be able to salvage our capital ship construction program, with these large cruisers being capable of filling out a battle squadron if needed, while being more than capable of anti-raider duties.
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Post by boomboomf22 on Aug 28, 2017 15:44:00 GMT -6
Armored Cruisers are the way of the future under this damnable treaty... I wonder how much armor I can slab onto one on 15000 tons? Hmmmmmmmmmmm
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Post by Noname117 on Aug 28, 2017 15:54:24 GMT -6
I'm not someone who really participates in these sorts of things, but I would like to bring up an argument for building 10" armed pre-dreadnoughts.
Nobody else is going to be building pre-dreadnoughts right now; you building them could put you ahead in the battleship count (or at the very least caught up), which is going to make it harder for you to be blockaded. Though I can also see why armored cruisers would be good. It's your choice.
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Post by aeson on Aug 28, 2017 16:06:34 GMT -6
Domestic News: April 1901: - Pan Chao (HES B1901B coastal battleship), Yueh Fei (KAW Schlactschiff 1901A first class battleship), and four Lei Chung (KS D1901A) class destroyers laid down. May 1901: - Ning Hai departs on world cruise for naval cadets; Great Britain and Germany rumored to be disturbed by signs of growing Chinese strength. June 1901: - Ping Hai finishes working up - Japanese companies offer Chinese armaments manufacturers rights to hydrolic recoil system; Naval Minister disburses ¥4.3M from the Navy's reserve funds in incentives to ensure the deal goes through. - Work on Kuang Heng, Lei Chung-class destroyer, delayed for unexplained reasons; rumors suggest licensing deal may be at fault. July 1901: - Chinese armaments manufacturers announce new line of modern 9" naval rifles. August 1901: - Kiangnan Shipyard unveils privately-funded 8000t slipway. September 1901: - After secret negotiations, Navy orders Kuang Yuan, fifth Lei Chung-class destroyer, from Kiangnan Shipyard despite further delays in work on Kuang Heng. - Yueh Fei cancelled, broken up on slipway in compliance with Hague Naval Treaty of 1901; sources in Naval Ministry suggest high admirals and Naval Minister "unhappy" with lack of prior warning from Foreign Office. - Chinese armaments industry demonstrates new-model torpedo with improved range. October 1901: - Naval architects announce development of practical 600t destroyer. - Rumors abound of fatal accident during submersible tests; Naval Minister says "no comment." December 1901: - Kiangnan Shipyard unveils new privately-funded 9000t and Navy-funded 11,000t slipways, announces continuation of partnership with Naval Ministry in construction of new 13,000t slipway - Problems in delivery of equipment delay work on Ching Yuan, ninth and final Fu Hsing-class second class cruiser. January 1902: - Naval Minister makes speech critical of French Indochina policies. February 1902: - Lei Chung-class destroyers Kuang Keng and Kuang Li commission, fail to attain design speed on trials; Lei Chung remains in shipyard hands due to late delivery of equipment, Kiangnan Shipyard spokesman says. - Naval Minister denies rumors of further delays in work on Ching Yuan, announces cruiser's commissioning ceremony is to be postponed "for scheduling reasons." April 1902: - German and Chinese governments announce collaboration on development of coastal submarines; Chinese contribution of ¥4.2M to be taken from Navy's reserve funds. - Lei Chung commissions. May 1902: - Kuang Keng, Kuang Li finish working up. July 1902: - Lei Chung-class destroyer Kuang Yuan commissions. - Unconfirmed rumors circulate of arrest of French spy in Chinese naval yard; Naval Minister denies any such thing took place, saying that if there had been any truth to the rumors that French spies were caught attempting to sneak aboard Chen Yuen then he'd have been first to proclaim French perfidity to the world. In unrelated news, longtime French naval attache to French Embassy in Peking announces retirement. September 1902: - Navy announces successful test of small submersible torpedo boat. - Ching Yuan, final Fu Hsing-class cruiser, commissions. October 1902: - Government cuts naval budget, institutes social reforms; Admiral of the Northern Fleet says funding decisions are "political concern." November 1902: - Uprising in Southeastern China! Navy dispatches Chen Yuen, Ning Hai, and Ping Hai to assist army in restoring order. Great Britain expresses concern over damage to its citizens' properties during uprising. December 1902: - Spokesmen for Kiangnan Shipyard and Navy unveil 13,000t slipway, announce work on new, larger slipway to commence immediately. - Navy contributes ¥3.7M to purchase licensing agreement with Russian companies for Lyddite bursting charges, announces development of new armor piercing shell and 6' rangefinder.
Foreign News: 1901 (from April): - Great Britain lays down two additional first class cruisers of Euryalus class, two battleships of new Majestic class; France lays down Devastation, second Magenta-class battleship, and Lalande, new first class cruiser; Russia lays down new first class cruiser Oleg; USA lays down Connecticut, second California-class battleship. - Hague Naval Treaty of 1901 goes into effect in September. Great Britain scraps eight incomplete battleships - HMS Barfleur, HMS Hood, and HMS Redoubtable of Royal Oak class, HMS Magnificent, HMS Centurion, and HMS Jupiter of Magnificent class, and HMS Majestic and HMS Victorious of Majestic class; USA scraps two incomplete battleships - USS California and USS Connecticut of California class; France scraps two incomplete battleships - Magenta and Devastation of Magenta class; Japan scraps incomplete battleship Shikishima of Shikishima class; and China scraps incomplete battleship Yueh Fei of Yueh Fei class. - Great Britain commissions first class cruiser Aboukir of Hogue class; Japan commissions second class cruisers Hashidate and Akitsushima of Itsukushima class. 1902: - Great Britain lays down two additional Euryalus class cruisers, four battleships of new treaty-compliant Hood class; USA lays down additional San Diego class first class cruiser and new first class cruiser Huron as well as fourth New Jersey-class battleship and two battleships of revised California class; Japan lays down new large second class cruiser Asama and new second class cruiser Akeshi. - Great Britain commissions first class cruiser HMS Euryalus; Russia commissions first class cruisers Bayan of Pamyat Azova class and Varyag of Varyag class; USA commissions battleships USS Ohio and USS Nevada of New Jersey class, first class cruiser USS Pueblo of San Diego class; Japan commissions second class cruiser Suma.
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Post by aeson on Aug 28, 2017 19:23:15 GMT -6
Second Design Competition: ACR1903
The Imperial Chinese Navy would like to solicit proposals for an armored cruiser of at least 9000 tons having a speed of at least 23 knots and a broadside equivalent to at least four 10" guns (6" or heavier secondary guns may be counted towards the broadside, but remember that you only get ~half of the secondaries on a broadside; an NxC" + nxc" broadside will be considered 'equivalent' to 4x10" if N*C^3 + n*c^3 >= 3600, roughly), with main belt armor thickness not less than 4" amidships. Finances permitting, a second ship will be ordered to the winning design after Pan Chao completes some time in the summer of 1903. We regret to announce that shipyards in Great Britain and France will be unable to participate in this design competition due to the somewhat tense state of relations between our countries at the present time. Save file: Game4.zip (693.19 KB) Will 17:00 GMT Saturday September 2 be enough time for everyone?
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Post by parrot on Aug 28, 2017 20:10:53 GMT -6
ACR-1903 Kiangnan ModelThe Kiangnan Shipyard, eager to make use of the increased capabilities provided to us by our gracious Imperial government and through our trusted private investors, wishes to submit a proposal for a new Armour Cruiser for our Navy. The design presented will be the largest steam vessel ever constructed in China. The 24kt speed of this vessel will give it an important edge over its enemies - few vessels (if any) larger than a destroyer will be able to match it. The ships armour is more than adequate considering its speed. The turret armour in particular should allow this ship to keep fighting at full strength for as long as possible. While 10" guns of acceptable utility are not available to our shipyards, the armament of this vessel is far from lacking. Two twin 9" turrets at the fore and aft of the ship provide the heaviest fire, but they are amply supported by no less than a dozen 7" guns in individual turrets. These guns will allow for rapid volleys of fire which may threaten even larger opponents. To defend against smaller vessels such as torpedo boats, or torpedo boat destroyers, a dozen 3" guns have also been provided for.
We hope that the wisdom in this design will be evident. It is a powerful domestic design that is sure to not only show its strength in battle, but be a great example of the prestige of our Empire. Furthermore, we can give our assurances that the monthly expenditures in constructing this design can be covered by the current monthly surplus of the Navy.
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Post by theexecuter on Aug 28, 2017 22:11:29 GMT -6
The new CFS design for an armored cruiser is a revolutionary leap forward in cruiser design. She displaces 15,000 tons and has good range. Her armor is comparable to any armored cruiser in the world. Her speed, at 24 knots, is incomparable. She has the heaviest battery of main guns of any cruiser in the world, with six(!) ten inch guns. Arranged in twin turrets fore and aft and a pair of single midships wing turrets. She has a substantial anti-torpedo boat battery of sixteen six inch guns in casemates on her hull. She also possesses 4 submerged torpedo tubes for finishing off enemy cripples. She is expensive, at $2.419m for 24 months. However, you will get excellent value out of this ship. She is capable of going toe to toe with any cruiser built and prevailing...even the British Hogue class monsters. This ship will be the envy of every navy in the world. ACR1903.40d (5.12 KB)
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Post by boomboomf22 on Aug 29, 2017 5:57:45 GMT -6
Darn, I won't be able to participate. Oh well
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Post by aeson on Aug 29, 2017 8:55:47 GMT -6
Darn, I won't be able to participate. Oh well German yards should be fine; it's only the British and French yards that cannot participate due to tensions. If it's a time thing, then I'm willing to extend the deadline within reasonable limits.
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Post by boomboomf22 on Aug 31, 2017 20:10:38 GMT -6
Darn, I won't be able to participate. Oh well German yards should be fine; it's only the British and French yards that cannot participate due to tensions. If it's a time thing, then I'm willing to extend the deadline within reasonable limits. It was a time thing, but I got to an internet in time. "The Imperial Chinese Navy would like to solicit proposals for an armored cruiser of at least 9000 tons having a speed of at least 23 knots and a broadside equivalent to at least four 10" guns (6" or heavier secondary guns may be counted towards the broadside, but remember that you only get ~half of the secondaries on a broadside; an NxC" + nxc" broadside will be considered 'equivalent' to 4x10" if N*C^3 + n*c^3 >= 3600, roughly), with main belt armor thickness not less than 4" amidships. Finances permitting, a second ship will be ordered to the winning design after Pan Chao completes some time in the summer of 1903." SO Blohm und Voss presents the AC1903a The AC1903a has a compete belt of at least 5", with a half inch extra on both the turrets and main belt. While pricey the size is the biggest a ship can safely be built with double wing turrets. A design with out them was deemed unsatisfactory as it would require a mixed heavy battery not ideal for a first rate armored cruiser. Not sure if this is valid, but I don't math... my broadside of 8 9" guns out shoots 4 10"... And I just realized that as a german yard I can cheat by a full 1000 frikkin tons HAHAHAHA. Attachments:AC1903a.40d (4.92 KB)
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