What's Your Doctrine on Refits

[ranger9000]

The questions in the topic, and I know there has probably been this exact same question asked a few times before but I was playing RTW again on vacation as the CSA and realized I got to 1919 with my fleet composition looking like this.




As you can see, I actually have a pretty strong budget. I've been winning wars left right and center against Spain and France that more or less has given me complete control over the Gulf and parts of SEA. Yet, I can't really justify scrapping my Robert E Lee classes, or my Teasers. The former have done literally nothing of note but I'm utterly terrified of scrapping them and having to deal with a 30 month build up for some new BBs, and the Teasers are actually my most successful ship period. The origional model Teasers that the game gave me (2 double 9" batteries) helped with the sinking of two french Bs right at the start of the game. I had a war in 1902 with the French and for some reason a cruiser action put the Teaser along with Selma and a bunch of CLs and DDs up against 2 unescorted french Bs. After that they've sunk almost 80% of the casualties I've inflicted. Their current refit has changed the 9" batteries out for 2 7" triple turrets and upped the speed to 25 knots which has let them hunt the hell out of raiders.

As it is though both ships have undergone a solid 3-4 refit periods. The Teasers are about to go in for another Refit as it is (new fire control and machinery replacement) and I'm starting to at what point refitting is going to stop being my go to for these old boats. So I was wondering, what's everyone else's doctrine toward refits. Do you pretty much stop after the second working up? Or do you keep old ships running around long past their prime like myself.

[oaktree]

For me it varies by ship type, time period and type of refit.

1.  I rarely do machinery upgrades.  Very expensive.

2. MS (usually just 200t basic ones) get consistent "slap a coat of paint on it" refits throughout the game.  And necessary to keep them from being sold off.

3.  DDs might get a few in order to get upgraded fire control, improved guns, or an improved torpedo layout.  DDs are usually kept around with the older types not refit and assigned to coastal patrol/ASW work to help the mine sweepers.

4.  CLs are refit as needed for improved guns, fire control, and deck torpedo mounts.  Once mine rails are available the older CLs get these as well, even if it means stripping out their submerged torpedo mounts.  I use the older CLs as colonial auxiliaries and try to keep them in safe areas.  I have experimented with keeping old 3500t raider CLs as colonial cruisers by giving them mines and outfitting them for colonial station.

5.  CAs get a limited number of refits for improving guns and fire control.  I tend to start scrapping the 1900-1905 CAs around 1920 or so as my BC force and/or replacement CAs start being commissioned.  That also depends on what the other navies are doing, my budget status, foreign station requirements, etc.  So a few might soldier on to support a colony for a while longer.

6. Bs will get a refit for fire control.  And maybe one at ten years of age.  However, after that point they usually molder until I have sufficient BB/BCs that I can scrap them.

7.  BC/BB designs tend to hang around and get refitted for better fire control and guns.  The early ones might be scrapped out at some point depending on fleet composition, especially if they have poor or no explicit torpedo protection.

[Noname117]

There was a similar thread discussing this not too long ago, but generally large refits on large ships are a bad idea. I usually don't upgrade machinery, ever, and scrap a bunch of older and less useful ships after a war (so that I have the money to build ships before the next war). When ships start becoming obsolete speed-wise (for cruisers), gun-wise (ACs, BCs, and especially BBs), and armor-wise (ACs, BCs, and especially BBs) I start considering moving them to a secondary role or scrapping them (though I do tend to keep my first generation dreadnoughts around for awhile, but only with fire control upgrades). Generally speed is the big determining factor as to whether I judge a ship obsolete or not.

Machinery and gun refits are massively expensive and it would just be better to keep the ship you currently have and get a couple new ships than have an older ship with better guns and speed. Maybe you can get away with a gun upgrade on a light cruiser.

The only times you want to do a machinery or gun refit are if you are about to go to war and need an advantage fast, or if you're subject to a naval treaty and can't build new large ships. There's really no other reason to do so, and when you're about to go to war there's very few situations where it's actually a good idea to do so, unless you've committed too much to keeping old ships around.

[JagdFlanker]

if you'r going to scrap ships, do it the turn after a war ends since that will give you the maximum number of turns with the maximum budget you have to build new ships before the next war


another tip is i always rebuild every single one of my ships the turn after a war is finished so none of my ships go obsolete (O) during the next war. when you rebuild you lower your crew quality which you would rather not happen during war

[Noname117]

I guess I should list what I do for various types of ships:



1: Minesweepers get the "new coat of paint" treatment every 6-8 years so they don't get scrapped.

2: Old destroyers get kept around, but are rarely ever updated. I may do a "new coat of paint" treatment occasionally, and older (700 tonners and below) DDs might get refit with mines. Later DDs (900 tonners and above) are likely to get fire control upgrades along with their mines. Generally whatever DDs I consider modern enough for fleet escort get properly upgraded while those older get neglected.

3: Light cruisers are where my typical fleet doctrine starts to apply. Light cruisers below a certain speed are scrapped or put on secondary duties (this speed changes over time, a few years in it's below 23 knots, then 24, then 25, and so on. This speed depends on the amount of cruisers I have above a certain speed and how many years it is into the game). They get regular fire control upgrades, elevation upgrades when they become available, and will be refit with mines if still in service. Older, slower cruisers will get put on coastal patrol duty, sent to colonies, or sent on expedition fleets (going to rob colonies from other nations) if not scrapped.

4: Armored cruisers typically get phased out about 1910-ish, and brought back in the 1920s or 1930s. Early armored cruisers will get regular fire control upgrades, but will get scrapped once battlecruisers start being introduced. Smaller cruisers, slower cruisers, and cruisers made with a design compromise (low freeboard, cramped crew quality) get scrapped first. Generally I'll keep around my best couple armored cruisers until the 1920s/30 armored cruisers come along (something like a super-blucher might not even be considered entirely obsolete by then). Treaties can result in keeping armored cruisers around longer and may result in machinery and gun upgrades.

5: Pre-dreadnoughts usually start getting scrapped once a few dreadnoughts and battlecrusiers are in service. They don't get more than fire control upgrades (except for that one time where I got 13" guns of quality 0 in 1901 and was heading to war with France soon. That's when 2 or 3 of my battleships got refit with the guns since new ones weren't building fast, and those old battleships were kind of useless without them). Usually slower, worse armed, and worse armored pre-dreadnoughts get scrapped first, with the later ones able to last a good few years in secondary roles (usually they start being put on colonial duty and expedition fleets). A treaty will extend their lifespan, although it might not lead to proper upgrades.

6: The first class of battlecruiser may get scrapped, especially if they're lighter or semi-dreadnoughts. The successive classes usually don't for awhile, although more and more get relegated to secondary duties. Although they are the ships which are probably the most useful to get machinery upgrades, I never actually do it, just giving them fire control upgrades. Maybe torpedo tubes.

7: Dreadnoughts usually don't go obsolete speed-wise as I tend to build 21 knots and stay there for a long time. Because of this they get kept around a lot longer, and don't need machinery refits. Gun upgrades are a possibility, but rare, usually only with older ships which have no value without them. But, as I said, very rare, and becoming rarer as I play the game more.


So in short, I rarely do gun refits and almost never do machinery refits, as they aren't worth it when you can just build a new ship. They only become worthwhile when you can't build a new ship (in time) or when your ship is totally useless without them, and is decently useful with them.

[rimbecano]

I tend to be as conservative as Noname117 about large ship refits. I've tried refitting my early game CAs as heavy cruisers a few times and haven't found it very worthwhile. One thing I routinely do, though, is extensive refits on destroyers. I always refit my entire destroyer fleet with oil firing when records come due for coal-fired ships, and, depending on the original speed will use the freed up tonnage for either more speed or for up-arming them. I also routinely consolidate torpedo tubes once double and triple tubes become available, especially on designs that needed to use off-centerline tubes to avoid crowding. If better guns are available when a DD comes due for a refit. I've even been known to completely change the gun layout on a destroyer fairly often. I'm much more loath, in general, to scrap DDs than other ships, because they're expendable anyways, so lesser combat survivability as they age matters less, and they can also fulfill CP duties regardless of their age. In my last game I took a royal hammering from submarines against an enemy alliance with over 200 subs in the 1920s, and had very recently scrapped my oldest destroyers. As it happened, having those old destroyers availability for CP would have about doubled the number of new destroyers available for front-line duty, or allowed me to reduce the enemy sub force more quickly.

[dorn]

My strategy of refits are:

MS: blank refit
DD: blank refit or fire control upgrade
CL: fire control upgrade, gun upgrade if they are upgraded from -1 to +1. I do not bother to upgrade quality 0 to +1.
CA: fire control upgrade only, as there are phased out by battle-cruisers and their maintenance costs are usually higher than even pre-dreadnoughts
BC: fire control, guns. In very specific occasions I did complete refit on old BC to get cruiserkiller ship. Usually its a little more expensive than built new CA but this BC has overall better armored and gunned and even able to supplement new BC on BC vs. BC battles
B: only fire control as they become absolete quite quickly. Sometimes I have the chepaer ones longer just to use it to increase invasion chance
BB: only fire control and sometimes guns

I do not do complete refits as building new ship is usually max. a little more expensive with much better ship. I do not upgrade machinery as the only reason for cruisers is increasing speed but it is too expensive usuallly 2/3 of new ship costs so not worth to do it.

[babylon218]

I tend to go with a policy like this:

Bs: No rebuilds, even for CS. They're usually so big that adding the CS tag is overkill, and what I really want is to get them as far out of the way as possible.
BBs/BCs: Refits for new fire control and increased turret armour if feasible: this especially applies during treaty periods. First-gen BCs may even see machinery upgrades if I have the budget. As a general rule, I don't go above 50% the cost of a new ship on reconstructions.
CAs: This depends on circumstance, since I tend to find I can get away without refitting a CA for the entire game. However, if I do refit a CA, I'll usually upgrade Fire Control, speed, remove tertiaries to add more secondaries or deck torpedo tubes. If the CA doesn't already have CS, I'll give it CS (I tend to design all CAs to be on hand for Foreign Service at some point).
CLs: Usually confined to FC and torpedoes/mines. Upgrading machinery doesn't cost significantly less than a new ship.
DDs: Ditto. I may consolidate or increase torpedo loads and increase speed if I really need some fleet screens urgently. Usually, I replace and scrap, or keep older ships on hand for ASW/CP.
MSs: Replace as sold off. By the closing stages of the game, I tend to build 1100t sloops for Colonial service to save money on colonial cruisers and provide more large ships for home station. If I build sloops early-mid game, I'll refit these to keep them around, since they can cost a similar amount to destroyers to build new (and I don't want to replace these ships every 5 years).

[ieshima]

MS: get some new paint

DDs: get scrapped once they get to old, unless they are the newest model with no improvement in sight. I will update them to have fire control, but only if they meet the previous requirements.

CLs: updates and refits as new/improved guns come about. I tend to transfer my first models to foreign station and replace them with faster versions. All get fire control when it becomes available.

CAs: I rarely have more than one class of CAs, since I tend to go big and loud at the start with what could be considered pre-dred BCs. They get refit and fire control when it comes about, and get a major overhaul to match my BCs speed, which I always stabilize at 27 knots. They often stay part of my fleet till the end of the game, despite the costs.

Bs: Get ignored unless they need new paint/guns. Will get fire control, and the best classes will be sent to foriegn station when BBs come around. The rest get scrapped once I get a strong modern battle line.

BCs: general painting and repair. Oldest classes might get scrapped if they get to old. Often need a major refit to oil-firing.

BBs: See BCs above. Will get improved guns when they come out.

[joebob73]

MS: Every 8-9 years to keep them from going obsolete during a war

DD: Might get better FCS if over 1.1k tons, otherwise just blank rebuild because they're only useful to pad the ASW/CP counter.

CL: If they can make at least 29 knots with an engine rebuild, they'll get one, and serve for the rest of the game as raiders/patrol ships. Improved FCS or deck-mounted torpedoes also. Otherwise, usually scrapped as soon as I can lay down replacements.

CA: I build them to where they last basically forever, with an engine rebuild to take them to 28 knot speed, improved FCS as it is developed, and a re-gunning once I get +1 guns in their caliber. Doesn't hurt that 16k ton legacy CAs can be well armored and equipped with 13" guns, making them effectively proto-BCs when laid down.

BC: Early BCs get a full rebuild into *very* fast raider hunters, usually capable of 31-32 knots. They would just be dead weight in a fleet battle, but tear through enemy cruisers just as well as my CAs, and cost less to refit than a new-build CA would take. Later "heavy" BCs get a full rebuild as well, which is significantly cheaper than a new-build, even with engine and gun replacement.

BB: The first dreadnoughts tend to be very compromised designs, but since they cannot be raider hunters, are usually scrapped soon after better ones are available. Once they start getting to 14" guns and ~40k tons, they get refit and used for the rest of the game.

B: Typically scrapped once I build up a proper battle line of dreadnoughts, but sometimes get preserved if they do something amazing, like the one I had which won a 3-on-1 battle against its British counterparts.

[ranger9000]

Seems most people generally have much more conservative refitting plans then myself. Maybe its just because I am so reluctant to build new BBs in my games as I usually actually find it cheaper to refit old ships then buy new ones. For example in the game above (it is now 1927), I have my next tier of BBs planned (Stonewall Jackson Class) which sits at 32,000 tons. Its going to cost me ~2.2 million per month to build them and it'll take me 30 months. Meanwhile I can just refit my Franklin Buchanans to something relatively comparable in terms of firepower (not armour though) for 800,000-1.1 mil and it'll take 4-5 months. And the Robert E Lees are still kicking around but I've managed to get their speeds up to 23 knots and fitted them with heavier, if only single turret guns for about the same price and a bit longer in the refitting period. They aren't great but they are doing a pretty good job of kicking raiders and cruiser formations in the pants.

Teasers are still kicking around too in a 1923 refit that brought back the 9" gun batteries and upped the speed to 27 knots, I've phased out CLs entirely at this point and actually started building /new/ Refit model Teasers since the things are working so well. Currently the highest ranking of them, the Selma, is running a good 16 battle stars and has sunk approximately 260,000 tons of enemy warship.

But yeah my general policy

MS: Rarely build them, ones I do usually languish

DD: Usually don't refit under 700 tonners, keeping the old ships around for CP duties. New ships will see a full retooling refit every 5-10 years if I remember to do so.

CL: Honestly, I have very little luck with these things and use either large DDs or smaller CAs instead. Generally I will run them till they sink and only give at best FC upgrades. Some games I'll refit them into Kitakami style torpedo boats in the early 1920s or later 1910s.

CA: Generally I try to keep these things around as long as I can, full machinery and gun refits every few years as needed.

B: See above, I prefer keeping my Bs around, even if they just end up serving as another brand of CA by the end of it, or colonial defense vessels. I'll update machinery and the like as well.

BC: Machinery replacements to help drag some extra speed out of them, gun replacements as needed. I'm more eager to scrap these things then BBs or CAs though to build a new model, that isn't saying much though.

BB: Full refits, the only time they'll get scrapped is when I need the maintenance space for a new model thats coming out soon. Even then I'll usually scrap BCs first.

[oldpop2000]

My opinion on refits and obsolescence is it really depends on the nation that you are representing. If I let the AI build the ships, many are cramped with short ranges. I generally start to build new destroyers to replace those cramped ones, but do not always scrap them. I use these destroyers and light cruisers that are cramped as war time coastal patrol ships. Between the wars, I put them in mothballs to reduce cost. By doing this, I found I can save the money needed to build the MS types. It seems to work well for nations without big naval budgets. As to the rest, it really depends on the state of disarmament treaties. If there is one in place then I just upgrade the current ships as often as possible. If not, then I either scrap them if they are too old, or mothball them for later use.

Another issue that I just remembered. Once the game starts, I review what the AI has under construction for me, and if it is cramped, I scrap it and save the coinage. I can then use that money saved to build better ships.

[cnw]

I operate more of a rule-of-thumb principles than any per-class.

• Ships in secondary duties (coastal, station) get just blank refits or cheap refits that fit their role (CD, mines..)
• Fire control - is mandatory on first line ships, but might get deferred if I wait for other technology (secondary directors, improved elevation & turrets etc) so I can do it all in a single refit.
  
• Gun upgrades - primary armament of first line capital ships only, and even then only when doing so would improve the quality by more than 1 point.
• Cross-deck firing - if I need BBs early and have just 3 turrets, I put the midships turrets en echelon and refit CDF later
  
• Other armament-related upgrades (secondary director, increased elevation) - only marginally more expensive than blank refits.
• Torpedoes - only removal of submerged tubes if I need the extra tonnage, deck mounted tubes only as a rearrangement of torpedo armament on my top DDs (like going from three singles to one centerline quad), never on other classes.
• Mines - OK on CLs, even second-line ones, no for other classes (I don't build AMCs to begin with).
  
• Propulsion upgrades - I haven't done this yet (the costs are rather prohibitive), but the idea of squeezing 3-4kt extra out of old BCs does have some appeal.
  

[antonindvorak]

The basic question is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of refits versus new builds?

Advantages:

• A refit is almost always a lot faster than building a new ship.
• A refit is almost always a lot cheaper than building a new ship.
• You get to keep your crew.  Not much training up needed.
• You can squeeze out a knot or two more with new machinery (though this is a larger refit).
• You can add torpedo bulges, even if you have no torpedo protection researched.  However, this will cost you speed.  (There should be a possibility to build a ship with bulges.)
• You can uprate guns (same calibre) if you have come up with better ones, say 0 to +1.
• You can switch to more, but smaller main guns or less, but larger ones in your turrets, if your needs change.
• "simple" changes, like adding fire control equipment or different secondary/tertiary guns or changing the amount of ammunition are easily done, but can increase the effective power of the ship by large amounts.

Disadvantages:

• You have to keep the armour as it is.  That is, you not only can make the armour thicker or thinner or switch to AoN layouts, you also do not get any of the weight improvements made on armour in the meantime.  You could get the "same" ship with the same effective armour, but save hundreds or thousands of tons to spend on machinery or weapons or more armour --- or you could have a smaller, cheaper ship that is as well protected and capable.
• You have to keep the hull as it is, free board, size and all, so you won't be able to access larger build sizes that may be possible now.  Also, you don't get any savings of hull weight due to newer production methods.
• You have to keep the larger gun layout as it is, except for minor changes.  You learned about main gun wing turrets, 3 centreline turrets, superposed turrets?  Sorry ... no go.

So it basically comes down to:

• How expensive is is to build and maintain the new ship I want?  How long does that take?
• If I rebuild an older ship, how close do I get to the new ship I want, and how much does it cost in money and time?
• Is the difference between rebuilding and a new build worth the money?
• Is the time delay for rebuilding and/or building new acceptable?
• What is better in the long run, say 5-10-15 years?
• Will putting some expensive, but currently not needed ships into reserve or mothballing them change the funds equation?

Which means it all depends on everything.  :-)

ranger9000, playing CSA in early 1919, at war with Spain and at good peace with everyone else, having 3.7M monthly income and 50M reserves could easily build 2-3 CAs or one BB on that money, but he'll not be able to do something else (like a large sub fleet).  Likely the war with Spain will end before either comes online.  Refitting the BBs, which are almost 10 years old now, might be good, but he likely needs them right now, so that will have to wait till after the war.

The Robert E. Lee (R 1917) pre-dreadnoughts are very slow (18 kts), and that is likely their Achilles heel; even though it might be due to torpedo bulges.  They cannot force a battle (since everything but slow AMCs or merchantmen will outrun them), they cannot deny battle except hoping for nightfall, they will hold back any task force they are in if high speeds are needed.  They can blockade if the enemy is funnelled into their range by the geography, they can support land battles (one assumes, with it's artillery) and might wield quite a bit of local influence, sort of a "fleet in being", deterring the enemy to come with too few ships..

Given they are 1899 designs, their armour is very likely weak against 1919's guns, and the Pamlico-class CAs outguns them, are larger, as a ~1913 design they likely will have better armour, and are a lot faster, though slightly more expensive. Could they take the place of the old B's?

If this was my game, the B's either would speed up to 21 or 22 knots or be on their way to mothball until new designs, with more armour, speed and guns, come online.  And the CLs, slower than BBs and CAs, might or might not be colony station ships/raiders, but they still ought to speed up, even if that means less guns --- they cannot mess with CAs anyway, so they don't need the guns for it, but they need to be able to run.  The 500t DDs are too slow to survive torpedo attack runs against anything modern and are likely not combat effective against more modern DDs of 700t or 900t. Elite crews or not, they now are sub chasers and mine sweepers --- and "proper" MS can wear a bit of armour, unlike DDs, they also can be cheaper and smaller. Fewer, but actually dangerous DDs would be preferable for me, while "throw away units" with little combat power no matter what happens don't need to be expensive.  Like minesweepers on coastal patrol --- they can deal with a submarine, maybe with a weak AMC or DD, but otherwise ... 

[serger]

Have a couple of questions about techs and refits.
AFAIK, munitions, rangefinders and fire control computer types are all determined by current owner nation techs only and there is no need to refit ships to use these techs up to date.
Also I remember from some old topic, that technical side of ROF levels and damage controls are determined by building nation techs, not owner nation techs.
But I'm not sure about those cases:
1. Refits are marked by the game as carried on local shipyards, even if you order it to foreign nation.
So, after such foreign refit, are technical side of ROF levels and/or damage controls determined by those foreign tech level, or on local (own nation) tech level?
2. Fire control levels sometimes will take a "semiautomatic" upgrade, if Fire control tech has radical progress at the time this ship was at shipyard.
So, are tech side of ROF levels and damage controls determined by tech level at the time of ordering, or by tech level at the time of completion of building/refit?