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Post by garrisonchisholm on Dec 5, 2017 9:55:17 GMT -6
I thought I would solicit everyone's favorite money saving techniques, since most players seem to place high priority on these measures, while to other players new and old (moi) money is only thought about when the monthly number turns RED.
I will start by stating one of the few measures I do use, which is that all of the MS & old DDs whose only role is Coastal Patrol get tossed into mothballs as soon as hostilities cease, though unless my CP is very large this seldom saves more than a few 100,000 per turn.
What other notes shall we suggest to those seeking to embrace a new fiscal minded-ness? In particular I think it would be valuable to give examples of roughly how much each measure shall save, as folks would be more willing to adopt a policy that would change their style if they saw a hard & appealing number attached to it.
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Post by babylon218 on Dec 5, 2017 13:25:15 GMT -6
Well, one measure I tend to use is to reserve fleet any ships which are obsolete (so Bs and CAs after BBs and BCs become a thing). Depending on how large your fleet is, the savings may vary. In the case of Britain, reserving your Pre-Dreadnought forces in peacetime can save a couple of million £s a month. The same goes for foregoing fleet training in peacetime when tensions are low (a measure I discovered more recently through other members on this forum). Another measure I've begun to use is to reserve all but my most modern Battle and Battle Cruisers squadrons. I tend to leave all but my most obsolete CLs and DDs in active fleet. This again depends on the size of your fleet, but if you have 8 BBs, reserving half of them saves about 1M. Same goes for BCs. This leaves you with a large battlefleet in wartime, but a low battlefleet maintenance in peacetime. It also means you have at least some response available at the beginning of hostilities (I would favour keeping the BCs active for this purpose over the BBs, but both is probably optimal). Combine these measures, and you're saving perhaps 3-6Mn every month, which should pay for an extra capital ship or significant light forces expansion.
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Post by aeson on Dec 5, 2017 15:03:46 GMT -6
- Maintain as little tonnage as possible at each foreign station while fulfilling tonnage requirements and keep everything else in home waters. Upkeep for ships is 20% higher overseas than it is at home, so maintaining large overseas squadrons can put a lot of strain on your finances, especially if you have big ships in those squadrons. -- If you do want to maintain squadrons of big ships overseas for whatever reason (threaten colonies in wartime, get other powers to pull big ships out of home waters, you're playing Britain and cutting the Mediterranean Fleet to a relative handful of cruisers wouldn't feel right, etc), then consider using your least expensive predreadnoughts, especially on stations where you don't really expect them to encounter modern big ships. - For the legacy fleet, consider a purpose-built colonial cruiser designed to fit your overseas tonnage requirements closely. 'Modernize' the colonial cruiser fleet by transitioning obsolete fleet cruisers to colonial service as you complete modern fleet cruisers. If you really need to pinch pennies, leave the old colonial cruisers in service more or less forever and scrap the more expensive fleet cruisers when they become too obsolete for continued use. Hard to say exactly how much you'll save by doing something like this, and I wouldn't advise trying to maintain two separate modern cruiser lines (one colonial, one fleet) or you'll probably lose more in construction costs than you'll save on upkeep, but at least in my experience you don't really need your best ships on colonial stations most of the time. - Design your ships to have reasonably long service lives, but don't be afraid to get rid of them when they become too obsolete to usefully continue in service. If you can extend their useful service lives with an economical refit, then do so, but if you're considering replacing the guns or machinery with more modern equipment, make sure to bear in mind the cost of a new ship of similar capabilities. -- Related to this, I generally do not build armored cruisers after about 1903 and scrap the ones I do have once decent battlecruisers start coming into service c.1907-1910. Saves around a quarter million per ship per turn in upkeep, and rids my fleet of a class of ship which I find to be more of a liability than anything else once decent numbers of battlecruisers are in service. -- Also related to this, consider making transitional designs, especially if you're switching to more modern types or faster ships relatively early. If your legacy predreadnought battle line is only good for 18 knots, then designing an early dreadnought battleship in 1903 for 21 knots might not make that much sense - it isn't likely to be able to make use of those extra three knots for a long time, unless you pull your legacy predreadnoughts out of the battle line quite early, and it's also not that likely that a 1903 early dreadnought will remain useful much longer than the predreadnoughts will. - Especially late in the game, you don't really need to build the biggest, fastest battleships and battlecruisers you possibly can. A 30-35 thousand ton 21-25 knot battleship with eight or nine 15" guns is probably more than adequate for most purposes from the time you can build one with reasonable armor to the end of the game, and it won't cost nearly as much as a 45 thousand ton 27 knot behemoth.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 5, 2017 17:46:22 GMT -6
Here is a practical review of the effects of placing some or most of your ships in RF status during peacetime to save money. USA game and this is my current fleet makeup. The date is March 1907 and I currently have 2 CA's, 4 CL's, 8 DD's and 8 MS's on foreign duty split between Northern Europe and Southeast Asia. All other ships are in home waters. My maintenance costs with my entire fleet in AF status is $9,099,400 per month. Placing all ships except for the foreign duty ships and three CL's that are still working up in RF status leaves me with a maintenance cost of $5,676,900 per month. From there, if I place all 16 old battleships in MB status (I don't normally use MB status but I'm doing so now for the data) my maintenance costs drop to $4,674,900 per month. The difference is $3,422,500 per month for reserve status and $4,424,500 per month with the the fleet in RF plus the B's in MB. Later years with a larger fleet and the difference is only going to get bigger. That's a good chunk of change. In-game I normally won't put my DD's and MS's in reserve because their costs are small and I want their crew quality at Good for the start of any conflict. However, if you know there is a round of refits coming up because of an expected tech breakthrough or because you need to cycle them to make sure they don't go (o) during the next war then there is no reason not to go ahead and RF them prior to the refits. For the same reason, if you don't want to put a ship in RF because you want to maintain its crew at Elite status but you know you are going to have to refit it you might as well bite the bullet and take the money. Refits reset crew quality at Fair.
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Post by generalvikus on Dec 5, 2017 21:12:35 GMT -6
- For the legacy fleet, consider a purpose-built colonial cruiser designed to fit your overseas tonnage requirements closely. 'Modernize' the colonial cruiser fleet by transitioning obsolete fleet cruisers to colonial service as you complete modern fleet cruisers. If you really need to pinch pennies, leave the old colonial cruisers in service more or less forever and scrap the more expensive fleet cruisers when they become too obsolete for continued use. This was one of the serious problems in my latest game as the UK. I designed purpose built colonial cruisers with long range and reliable engines at 22 knots, with armor and armament more or less equal to my fleet cruisers; all of this was according to the recommendations of the manual. The fleet cruisers, by contrast, had speed focused engines, a secondary battery of 3 inch guns, medium range, and a 24 knot top speed. The fleet cruisers stayed relevant for much longer, but because of their specialized design, I felt that they couldn't be used to replace the specialized colonial cruisers. As a result of this, I ended up having to replace the colonial cruisers, which took me from 1910 - 1918. Even despite taking so long to build 10 new cruisers, I ended up without any modern fleet cruisers and lost the dreadnought race to the USA as a result. I still don't think that dedicated fleet cruisers are fit for colonial service, but in my next game I will attempt to alleviate this whole problem by designing very large and expensive legacy colonial service cruisers which can make a decent speed (23 knots at least, but perhaps with slightly less armor or a slightly lighter main battery) and so stick around for longer with refits. As it happened, the ones I had were just a little too slow. I suppose I don't have much to say about cost- saving that I haven't already said in my other thread, but to summarize: - I've decided that, in future, I will only begin training when tensions get high. Having now tried this in the late stages of my last game, I found that it saved me $4 million, which was approximately 25 - 33% of my construction budget at the time. - I maintain minimal forces on foreign stations while the main fleet stays in home waters, ready to be moved to trouble spots as necessary. As Britian, I found maintaining constant power projection was prohibitively expensive. - As Britain, I chose the (perhaps arbitrary) doctrine during the early game of maintaining a one or two - battleship advantage in Northern Europe over the next strongest battlefleet. Those ships that were not needed to fulfill this requirement were placed progressively into reserves and then mothballs, with the oldest going first. By contrast, I never placed any of my old dreadnoughts in reserve until I judged that they had become obsolete, and even then, I refit them and never mothballed them. However, I think in my next game as Britain I will maintain the 'one up' doctrine throughout the dreadnought age, and begin mothballing old dreadnoughts as I did with the pre-dreadnoughts. - My coastal patrol ships always go into reserve in peacetime, but never mothballs. - Whereas I have a specific doctrine for battleship and DD / MS readiness, I'm more flexible with the cruisers. Generally, as they become outdated, they go through a long process of going into the reserves, then mothballs, then finally scrapping. So far, I've found that while refits are generally worthwhile for cruisers, rebuilds are generally not.
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Post by aeson on Dec 5, 2017 22:23:57 GMT -6
- For the legacy fleet, consider a purpose-built colonial cruiser designed to fit your overseas tonnage requirements closely. 'Modernize' the colonial cruiser fleet by transitioning obsolete fleet cruisers to colonial service as you complete modern fleet cruisers. If you really need to pinch pennies, leave the old colonial cruisers in service more or less forever and scrap the more expensive fleet cruisers when they become too obsolete for continued use. This was one of the serious problems in my latest game as the UK. I designed purpose built colonial cruisers with long range and reliable engines at 22 knots, with armor and armament more or less equal to my fleet cruisers; all of this was according to the recommendations of the manual. The fleet cruisers, by contrast, had speed focused engines, a secondary battery of 3 inch guns, medium range, and a 24 knot top speed. The fleet cruisers stayed relevant for much longer, but because of their specialized design, I felt that they couldn't be used to replace the specialized colonial cruisers. With neither cramped accommodations nor short range, I don't really see why the fleet cruisers wouldn't make adequate replacements for the colonial cruisers. Perhaps not ideal, but probably better, at least from a cost economy perspective, than building modern colonial cruisers alongside modern fleet cruisers. Speed priority on the engines and medium instead of long range won't leave them incapable of intercepting raiders, especially if the raiders are contemporary with or older than your patrollers, and as far as I know neither range nor engine priority has an impact on how well a ship fulfills foreign station requirements, except in wartime when speed priority might result in more breakdowns. Just as a note, you are not allowed to put more than 50% of your total fleet tonnage into mothballs. Putting those 16 predreadnoughts into mothballs might be pushing that limit, though I haven't added up your fleet tonnages to be sure.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 22:56:37 GMT -6
I have just one - blank refit. A blank refit reduces maintenance cost in all status. A blank refit class also has less construction cost compared to the original class. Adding colonial service during a refit doesn't cost tonnage.
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Post by generalvikus on Dec 5, 2017 23:19:57 GMT -6
I have just one - blank refit. A blank refit reduces maintenance cost in all status. A blank refit class also has less construction cost compared to the original class. Adding colonial service during a refit doesn't cost tonnage. I didn't know this - could you explain it in more detail? Why does a blank refit reduce the maintenance costs? Do you do this for all ship types?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 5, 2017 23:43:39 GMT -6
I have just one - blank refit. A blank refit reduces maintenance cost in all status. A blank refit class also has less construction cost compared to the original class. Adding colonial service during a refit doesn't cost tonnage. I didn't know this - could you explain it in more detail? Why does a blank refit reduce the maintenance costs? Do you do this for all ship types? You just service the ships engines, replacing worn out parts, and you do this throughout the ship. You do not upgrade anything, just maintenance that cannot be done except in a shipyard with the ship in drydock so you can check the rudders, propeller shafts and blades plus the hull. Then you paint the ship. During the last voyage, the problems that need attention by the shipyard will be documented and a naval engineer will come aboard and check the list and make recommendations about the repairs. It can help maintain the service life of the ship and its speed. It also reduces maintenance for a couple of years depending on how many voyages it has to make. Okay.
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Post by cv10 on Dec 6, 2017 1:06:19 GMT -6
I tend to mothball my battlecruisers during times of peace, as my battlecruisers tend to have higher maintenance costs than my battleships.
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Post by generalvikus on Dec 6, 2017 6:06:44 GMT -6
I didn't know this - could you explain it in more detail? Why does a blank refit reduce the maintenance costs? Do you do this for all ship types? You just service the ships engines, replacing worn out parts, and you do this throughout the ship. You do not upgrade anything, just maintenance that cannot be done except in a shipyard with the ship in drydock so you can check the rudders, propeller shafts and blades plus the hull. Then you paint the ship. During the last voyage, the problems that need attention by the shipyard will be documented and a naval engineer will come aboard and check the list and make recommendations about the repairs. It can help maintain the service life of the ship and its speed. It also reduces maintenance for a couple of years depending on how many voyages it has to make. Okay. Alright, great. Is there only an advantage for doing this for ships with the 'O' tag?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 6, 2017 8:50:50 GMT -6
You just service the ships engines, replacing worn out parts, and you do this throughout the ship. You do not upgrade anything, just maintenance that cannot be done except in a shipyard with the ship in drydock so you can check the rudders, propeller shafts and blades plus the hull. Then you paint the ship. During the last voyage, the problems that need attention by the shipyard will be documented and a naval engineer will come aboard and check the list and make recommendations about the repairs. It can help maintain the service life of the ship and its speed. It also reduces maintenance for a couple of years depending on how many voyages it has to make. Okay. Alright, great. Is there only an advantage for doing this for ships with the 'O' tag? The concept is to do regular maintenance on the ships and keep them in top condition in between major overhauls when they are upgraded. Many times you will do this kind of the maintenance then mothball them or put them in the reserve fleet so if they are needed, they will be in good shape. It is a cost cutting measure for maintainability. Just like doing an oil change in your car, draining and replacing the coolant etc. in your car. Just regular maintenance.
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Post by bcoopactual on Dec 6, 2017 9:06:33 GMT -6
You just service the ships engines, replacing worn out parts, and you do this throughout the ship. You do not upgrade anything, just maintenance that cannot be done except in a shipyard with the ship in drydock so you can check the rudders, propeller shafts and blades plus the hull. Then you paint the ship. During the last voyage, the problems that need attention by the shipyard will be documented and a naval engineer will come aboard and check the list and make recommendations about the repairs. It can help maintain the service life of the ship and its speed. It also reduces maintenance for a couple of years depending on how many voyages it has to make. Okay. Alright, great. Is there only an advantage for doing this for ships with the 'O' tag? There is no requirement or reason to wait for the (o) tag to perform a blank refit. No matter when you do it it will reset the clock for the next required refit to about ten years from the completion of the refit. JagdFlanker once wrote that he does a blank refit on all of his ships right after the end of his most recent war. That way he almost never has to worry about the ships starting to show (o)'s when he is in the middle of the next war. From experience I know that having to refit all of my MS's that I need to perform CP/ASW in the middle of a war is a pain. I now follow his advice and I've never had a problem with ships getting the (o) mark during a war since. Also, doing the blank refit early after a peace treaty gives plenty of time before the next war for crew quality to climb back up to good if you don't plan to place those ships in reserve after the refit. The only time I don't immediately refit ships after a war now is if I know a new fire control type or increased elevation or some other tech that I'm going to need to install is about to complete researching in the next year or so.
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Post by generalvikus on Dec 6, 2017 11:03:18 GMT -6
Alright, great. Is there only an advantage for doing this for ships with the 'O' tag? There is no requirement or reason to wait for the (o) tag to perform a blank refit. No matter when you do it it will reset the clock for the next required refit to about ten years from the completion of the refit. JagdFlanker once wrote that he does a blank refit on all of his ships right after the end of his most recent war. That way he almost never has to worry about the ships starting to show (o)'s when he is in the middle of the next war. From experience I know that having to refit all of my MS's that I need to perform CP/ASW in the middle of a war is a pain. I now follow his advice and I've never had a problem with ships getting the (o) mark during a war since. Also, doing the blank refit early after a peace treaty gives plenty of time before the next war for crew quality to climb back up to good if you don't plan to place those ships in reserve after the refit. The only time I don't immediately refit ships after a war now is if I know a new fire control type or increased elevation or some other tech that I'm going to need to install is about to complete researching in the next year or so. Thanks very much guys, this is very helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 11:52:54 GMT -6
I have just one - blank refit. A blank refit reduces maintenance cost in all status. A blank refit class also has less construction cost compared to the original class. Adding colonial service during a refit doesn't cost tonnage. I didn't know this - could you explain it in more detail? Why does a blank refit reduce the maintenance costs? Do you do this for all ship types? Well, when a cruiser is designed, I don't use colonial service. I add it during refit. When the cruiser newly commissions, I refit it immediately. The reduced maintenance cost would be especially useful on foreign stations. When a DD newly commissions and I wanna build more, I refit the new DD and build using the refit class. This saves construction cost. Same goes for AMC spam build in wartime. It is easy to see. Build say 2 CLs. When they commission note maingenance costs. Blank refit one and leave the other as is. Note mainfenance cost and construction cost- the refit one is lower in both.
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