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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jan 27, 2019 5:52:55 GMT -6
Yes, this would make the game more realistic. One major (in Britain) historical example was the hunt for the Bismarck. Planes taking off from the hunting carrier HMS Victorious were told that no friendly ship was in the search area so attack anything that moved. However, there was the cruiser HMS Norfolk there tracking the Bismarck as well. Luckily, the first torpedoes missed and the flight commander recognised her before the second wave. Not sure it would be worth the effort to add to the game at this point but an interesting idea. Well, actually it was the HMS Sheffield that was attacked. She had been ordered to steam ahead at top speed to establish contact with Bismarck. Luckily Sheffield combed the torpedoes. This is an example of the old phrase "Somebody always fails to get the word." Added bonus - Actual section of Admiral Tovey’s dispatch to headquarters – Home Fleet, 5th July, 1941 No. 896/H.F. 1325 Sir, Be pleased to lay before the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty the following despatch covering the operations leading to the sinking of the German battleship Bismarck on Tuesday, 27th May, 1941. All times are zone minus 2. …. 65. The speed of the King George V was reduced to 22 knots at 1705 on 26th May to economise fuel, and the Rodney, who had by then been overhauled, was formed astern. I had recommended the Flag Officer Commanding, Force "H", to remain with the Ark Royal, he was maintaining his position on the beam of the Bismarck and had detached the Sheffield to shadow. The visual signal ordering this latter movement was not repeated to the Ark Royal, an omission which, as will be seen later, had serious consequences. 66. A striking force of 15 Swordfish, one of which had to return, was flown off at 1450; they were armed with duplex pistol set to 30 ft. instead of 34 ft., in consequence of the doubt which then existed in the Ark Royal whether the enemy ship was the Bismarck or the Prinz Eugen. The weather was particularly bad in the vicinity of the target and reliance was placed on the ASV set carried in one of the aircrafts; this aircraft located a ship at 1550, about 20 miles from the expected position of the enemy, and an attack through the cloud was ordered. The ship detected was the Sheffield, of whose presence near the Bismarck the striking force was not aware, and eleven torpedoes were dropped at her. Two of the torpedoes exploded on hitting the water, and three more on crossing the wake, the remainder being successfully avoided by the Sheffield who, with great forbearance, did not fire a single round in reply. It's at this point that I have to confess with a red face to looking at that awful site Wikipedia. Slap on the wrist for me! It is remarkable that the Sheffield did not fire back as most naval ships took aircraft as enemy until proven otherwise. The torpedo attack would normally been the order to open fire. A very alert officer-of-the-watch apparently!
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 27, 2019 9:19:38 GMT -6
Well, actually it was the HMS Sheffield that was attacked. She had been ordered to steam ahead at top speed to establish contact with Bismarck. Luckily Sheffield combed the torpedoes. This is an example of the old phrase "Somebody always fails to get the word." Added bonus - Actual section of Admiral Tovey’s dispatch to headquarters – Home Fleet, 5th July, 1941 No. 896/H.F. 1325 Sir, Be pleased to lay before the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty the following despatch covering the operations leading to the sinking of the German battleship Bismarck on Tuesday, 27th May, 1941. All times are zone minus 2. …. 65. The speed of the King George V was reduced to 22 knots at 1705 on 26th May to economise fuel, and the Rodney, who had by then been overhauled, was formed astern. I had recommended the Flag Officer Commanding, Force "H", to remain with the Ark Royal, he was maintaining his position on the beam of the Bismarck and had detached the Sheffield to shadow. The visual signal ordering this latter movement was not repeated to the Ark Royal, an omission which, as will be seen later, had serious consequences. 66. A striking force of 15 Swordfish, one of which had to return, was flown off at 1450; they were armed with duplex pistol set to 30 ft. instead of 34 ft., in consequence of the doubt which then existed in the Ark Royal whether the enemy ship was the Bismarck or the Prinz Eugen. The weather was particularly bad in the vicinity of the target and reliance was placed on the ASV set carried in one of the aircrafts; this aircraft located a ship at 1550, about 20 miles from the expected position of the enemy, and an attack through the cloud was ordered. The ship detected was the Sheffield, of whose presence near the Bismarck the striking force was not aware, and eleven torpedoes were dropped at her. Two of the torpedoes exploded on hitting the water, and three more on crossing the wake, the remainder being successfully avoided by the Sheffield who, with great forbearance, did not fire a single round in reply. It's at this point that I have to confess with a red face to looking at that awful site Wikipedia. Slap on the wrist for me! It is remarkable that the Sheffield did not fire back as most naval ships took aircraft as enemy until proven otherwise. The torpedo attack would normally been the order to open fire. A very alert officer-of-the-watch apparently!
The watch officer and gunners did not shoot for two reasons: A. They recognized the attackers. B. The pilots a couple of seconds after the launch of the torpedoes got the message from Tovey about the Sheffield being detached and to keep a look out for her. I am going to try to examine a profile of the Sheffield and Hipper class cruisers because the pilots claimed she looked just like the Hippers. They did not know that Prinz Eugen had been detached and was headed out Brest.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jan 27, 2019 10:39:10 GMT -6
The Sheffield's bridge would have had a big bonus to their "identify aircraft" roll, since there was no way German biplanes could have been in that area. Unless Bismarck carried a dozen scouts. They would have 99% been sure they were looking at Swordfish.
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Post by noshurviverse on Jan 27, 2019 10:47:53 GMT -6
The watch officer and gunners did not shoot for two reasons: A. They recognized the attackers. B. The pilots a couple of seconds after the launch of the torpedoes got the message from Tovey about the Sheffield being detached and to keep a look out for her. I am going to try to examine a profile of the Sheffield and Hipper class cruisers because the pilots claimed she looked just like the Hippers. They did not know that Prinz Eugen had been detached and was headed out Brest. Comparing the two, I can't say I've got much confidence that the Swordfish pilots checked their target that carefully.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 27, 2019 11:00:35 GMT -6
In reference to the photos, thanks a lot, I don't have to research it. Now, about the issue of target recognition. Well, pilots are or were notorious for not studying their target recognition charts or even bringing them along. PBY pilots and crew did, my dad used to fly in PBY's in the Southwest Pacific during the war. He used to say that at about 100-150 MPH, at 5000 feet with clouds, it is really hard to identify correctly a ship. I suspect the Swordfish pilots, flying in open cockpits, in the North Atlantic near Iceland were cold, wet and had goggles on to protect them. Personally, under those conditions, I think it would be an easy mistake to make especially if you have been told that there were no British ships in the area. You certainly would not want to make a pass to verify, because if it were a Hipper, they would be alerted and the attack would be very bad, so you would have to make a quick ID, and launch the attack. Surprise, speed and concentration seems to be the idea in all this, especially for slow moving biplane stringbags like the Swordfish. Swordfish doctrine called for an approach at 5000 feet, weather permitting then a dive to torpedo release altitude of 18 feet. The question then arises as to what altitude they were searching for Bismarck at? It was a clouding stormy day, I suspect that cloud layers of less then 5000 feet probably 2000 feet. If we assume 5000 feet, then they could see about 86.6 miles. However, in the weather I seriously doubt it. At 2000 feet, they could see 54.8 miles. All this plays into the approach and attack. The weather in May near Iceland is stormy and cold, about 43 degrees at the capital. Out at sea, it would be much less and at 5000 feet, you will lose about 5.5 degrees per thousand feet. So, you would lose conservatively 25 degrees. In other words, it would be freezing about 18 degrees F at their search altitude. As an aid to the understanding of this issue, here is the monthly British Met office summary for May 1941 - www.metoffice.gov.uk/binaries/content/assets/mohippo/pdf/d/4/may1941.pdf
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Post by cwemyss on Jan 27, 2019 17:31:30 GMT -6
Latest dev update.....
Holy cow....
This is going to be...
AWESOME!
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Post by axe99 on Jan 27, 2019 17:48:30 GMT -6
I'll second that cwemyss, thanks for the update jwsmith26, that level of detail and the way it operates sounds like almost the perfect (for me at least - individual preferences will vary) balance between control and "you're the admiral, not God, so you don't actually get to design the planes yourself". Big props to all involved .
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 27, 2019 18:01:50 GMT -6
The Sheffield's bridge would have had a big bonus to their "identify aircraft" roll, since there was no way German biplanes could have been in that area. Unless Bismarck carried a dozen scouts. They would have 99% been sure they were looking at Swordfish. Quite so, Sheffield had been part of the carrier task force and would have been intimately familiar with the stringbag, since it was very unique. The pilots were lucky.
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Post by pirateradar on Jan 27, 2019 19:28:48 GMT -6
One can only imagine the mixed feelings after such an incident. On the one hand, thankful to be alive. On the other, a lot less confident in the Fleet Air Arm's aim...
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Post by dorn on Jan 27, 2019 19:43:36 GMT -6
One can only imagine the mixed feelings after such an incident. On the one hand, thankful to be alive. On the other, a lot less confident in the Fleet Air Arm's aim... It was quite "common" and not only in RN. Navigation over sea is not easy and if you take into considaraion everything @oldpop said you can find that it was quite difficult task especially for unexperienced pilots. Friendly fire was quite common. In Pacific Seawolf was lost to friendly fire. Italians quite "often" bomb their own ships etc.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 27, 2019 19:53:42 GMT -6
One can only imagine the mixed feelings after such an incident. On the one hand, thankful to be alive. On the other, a lot less confident in the Fleet Air Arm's aim... Well, they were in a war and in wars, you don't have time to mull over mistakes. In this case, the message to lookout for the Sheffield just didn't reach the carrier soon enough. I am sure this was changed in the next combat operation along with some recommendations in their After Action Reports. I don't think they lost any confidence in the Fleet Air Arm, especially after they found out that the actions of the bombers slowed Bismarck down and allowed the Home Fleet to sink her. All is forgotten.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 27, 2019 19:58:05 GMT -6
One can only imagine the mixed feelings after such an incident. On the one hand, thankful to be alive. On the other, a lot less confident in the Fleet Air Arm's aim... It was quite "common" and not only in RN. Navigation over sea is not easy and if you take into considaraion everything @oldpop said you can find that it was quite difficult task especially for unexperienced pilots. Friendly fire was quite common. In Pacific Seawolf was lost to friendly fire. Italians quite "often" bomb their own ships etc. Sometimes its your friends. On June 8, 1967 an American spy ship, the Liberty was bombed by an Israeli fighter and torpedo boats. The real problem was, that they knew it was our ship, and still fired on it. Now, was it friendly fire, or deliberate. The jury is still out on this question although we have radio communications between the pilot and headquarters where the pilot tells them he can see the US flag and they tell to follow orders.... attack the ship.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 27, 2019 21:51:20 GMT -6
This document might be of some interest for the discussion about Bismarck and Sheffield. It is an official ONI document about ship shapes and anatomy. It's main purpose was to explain how ships looked primarily for recognition. www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/ONI/ONI-223/ONI-223.pdf
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Post by axe99 on Jan 27, 2019 22:12:05 GMT -6
One can only imagine the mixed feelings after such an incident. On the one hand, thankful to be alive. On the other, a lot less confident in the Fleet Air Arm's aim... It was quite "common" and not only in RN. Navigation over sea is not easy and if you take into considaraion everything @oldpop said you can find that it was quite difficult task especially for unexperienced pilots. Friendly fire was quite common. In Pacific Seawolf was lost to friendly fire. Italians quite "often" bomb their own ships etc. No two ways about it - during the Battle of the Coral Sea, the force of American and Australian cruisers and destroyers detached to head off the Japanese invasion force heading for Port Moresby was sighted and enthusiastically bombed by B-17s, although fortunately with a bit of luck and maneuvering all of the bombs missed, but at one point one of the ships wasn't visible beyond a wall of shell splashes!
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Post by pirateradar on Jan 28, 2019 0:22:14 GMT -6
This document might be of some interest for the discussion about Bismarck and Sheffield. It is an official ONI document about ship shapes and anatomy. It's main purpose was to explain how ships looked primarily for recognition. www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/ONI/ONI-223/ONI-223.pdfA great little document in general. Thanks for the link!
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