AA requirements over time

[generalvikus]

How does one compose an effective anti-aircraft suite, and how does the appropriate size and composition of that suite change over time? What would you consider to be an appropriate AA armament for a destroyer, a cruiser, and a capital ship in 1920, 1925, 1930, and so on? This is a question that I haven't seen discussed in depth so far, and one that I'd like to delve into. 

Historically, I think it's reasonable to say that early AA armaments in the 1910s and 1920s were more or less token measures, but I think it's worth asking whether the threat of aircraft in those early years warranted more more than a token response. Since it is generally agreed that one of the lessons of the early war was that a greater AA complement was needed  than had previously been thought, it might be reasonable to assume that, as a general rule, AA armament ought to be heavier than it was historically. This leads to an obvious question: if thinking about anti-aircraft weaponry was outdated by the outbreak of war, how out-dated was it? Would it have been appropriate for dealing with the air threat of five or ten years prior? 

[dorn]

Everything, you need HAA, MAA and LAA.

You can think about it as zones. If one of zones are not covered it means that enemy aircrafts can safely fly through that zone (a little simplification but it is my guess how it works in RTW2).

note to LAA: I can see on players design that some players from middle game (30s) do not use LAA and use more MAA instead but I expect that it does inferior result to have AA defending all 3 "zones". It is true that enemy aicrafts can release ordnance before LAA can shot down that plane but neverthless LAA can still inflict disruption.

And main point of AA fire is to disrupt attack, not shot down enemy plane. It is important to know you cannot have this information directly from log as how much aicrafts are shot down and damaged. This information is hiden as one of variables in effect of strike.

note: all above is my personal opinion how it works seeing battles, does not mean it is completely correct

[stevethecat]

It is very difficult to see what the effects of your AA are, I operate entirely on 'more = better' and ~4inch DP guns on everything.

Have been switching to more fighters on land bases as well for the extra cap cover. But again it's hard to tell what is actually working and where.

[jorgencab]

In general you are best of with some of each on as many ships as possible. Making one huge AA ship are probably not very effective from a resource perspective. The developer told in another thread that there are diminishing returns of the more AA you add and having several different heavy AA batteries on the same ship also reduce the overall efficient of that heavy AA.

So I conclude that if you have a destroyer you should make your 5" or 4" main guns into DP, if you have secondaries keep them as regular guns and only have a few for anti-ship duties. Then use approximately 2/3 medium and 1/3 light AA or some such. Medium is generally more effective but light AA are good when the ship itself is attacked and cheap and small enough to actually matter to disrupt enemy attacks and since there is a diminishing return on effective AA you are better of with some light AA as well on each ship.

On a cruiser you might consider having also one secondary battery as DP capable. If you have a 5" light cruiser you might consider two different heavy AA, but you need to understand that is is slightly less efficient. But it will not be worse then if you don't have it. Just don't build around that concept and make them into huge AA bee swarms. Some dedicated AA cruisers might work but not loads of them, probably not worth the effort to just having a few more destroyers instead.

Don't bother with making 6" into DP on a cruiser... just use their 4" secondaries as DP... that is probably a better use of your resources.

Battleships swamped with AA is not very efficient for fleet protection, but that does not mean you don't want to cram as much AA on them as you can. If you have them you might as well protect them as well as you can.

For CV I would add a few 5" or 4" DP guns and then a whole lot of light and medium AA, the more the better. You don't want the enemy to sink them they are the workhorse of the fleet.

In a nutshell... several ships that have a layered AA capability in the later game is the way to go. Try to only use one type of heavy AA on each ship if possible, I also think a mix of 4" and 5" DP guns in a fleet is good since they have different effective zones of engagement, or at least they should.

[southkraut]

Jun 13, 2019 6:21:28 GMT -6 jorgencab said:

In a nutshell... several ships that have a layered AA capability in the later game is the way to go. Try to only use one type of heavy AA on each ship if possible, I also think a mix of 4" and 5" DP guns in a fleet is good since they have different effective zones of engagement, or at least they should.

This seems like a very good assessment.

[generalvikus]

All very good advice, thanks everyone - but one important thing that hasn't been addressed yet is how much AA is necessary at various times for different types of ships, and how (or whether) the balance of light / medium / heavy AA should change over time. Can anybody comment on these topics?

[pcasey]

Jun 13, 2019 1:46:59 GMT -6 dorn said:

Everything, you need HAA, MAA and LAA.

You can think about it as zones. If one of zones are not covered it means that enemy aircrafts can safely fly through that zone (a little simplification but it is my guess how it works in RTW2).

note to LAA: I can see on players design that some players from middle game (30s) do not use LAA and use more MAA instead but I expect that it does inferior result to have AA defending all 3 "zones". It is true that enemy aicrafts can release ordnance before LAA can shot down that plane but neverthless LAA can still inflict disruption.

And main point of AA fire is to disrupt attack, not shot down enemy plane. It is important to know you cannot have this information directly from log as how much aicrafts are shot down and damaged. This information is hiden as one of variables in effect of strike.

note: all above is my personal opinion how it works seeing battles, does not mean it is completely correct

Its not like an attacker "picks" a zone and then attacks into that zone though is it?

Its more of a layer cake where first Heavy AA engages (potentially from other nearby ships as well).
Then medium AA from the target ship engages.
Then either the attack happens, and then light AA from the target ship engages, or vice versa (its random so potentially light AA engages after the bombs/torpedoes are launched).

Based on that I don't think there's an specific benefit to having a layered approach to AA.

20 points of medium AA shoots down/disrupts just as many planes as 20 points of light AA.

It costs more mind you, but it always attacks prior to torpedo launch so it has advantages over light AA.

Having literally no AA of a particular zone doesn't produce a blind spot, it just means that when attacking planes are flying through that part of the layer cake they aren't being shot at.

[dorn]

Jun 13, 2019 11:55:49 GMT -6 pcasey said:

Jun 13, 2019 1:46:59 GMT -6 dorn said:

Everything, you need HAA, MAA and LAA.

You can think about it as zones. If one of zones are not covered it means that enemy aircrafts can safely fly through that zone (a little simplification but it is my guess how it works in RTW2).

note to LAA: I can see on players design that some players from middle game (30s) do not use LAA and use more MAA instead but I expect that it does inferior result to have AA defending all 3 "zones". It is true that enemy aicrafts can release ordnance before LAA can shot down that plane but neverthless LAA can still inflict disruption.

And main point of AA fire is to disrupt attack, not shot down enemy plane. It is important to know you cannot have this information directly from log as how much aicrafts are shot down and damaged. This information is hiden as one of variables in effect of strike.

note: all above is my personal opinion how it works seeing battles, does not mean it is completely correct

Its not like an attacker "picks" a zone and then attacks into that zone though is it?

Its more of a layer cake where first Heavy AA engages (potentially from other nearby ships as well).
Then medium AA from the target ship engages.
Then either the attack happens, and then light AA from the target ship engages, or vice versa (its random so potentially light AA engages after the bombs/torpedoes are launched).

Based on that I don't think there's an specific benefit to having a layered approach to AA.

20 points of medium AA shoots down/disrupts just as many planes as 20 points of light AA.

It costs more mind you, but it always attacks prior to torpedo launch so it has advantages over light AA.

Having literally no AA of a particular zone doesn't produce a blind spot, it just means that when attacking planes are flying through that part of the layer cake they aren't being shot at.

I would expect that there is benefit to have all three types of AA guns. Just remember more AA decrease effectivity of another gun added. So if you have none LAA, next LAA guns could be more effective than adding additional MAA.

Relating to LAA, you are right that they cannot shoot down plane before release of bombs/torpedoes sometimes but disruption works no matter of it (it is quite logical and it is even stated in manual).

And as primary task of AA guns is disruption of attack, for this point of view LAA has no disadvantage over MAA.

Main point of AA is adding more has diminishing returns so having only one or two categories is probably not best.

[oldpop2000]

The layered approach to anti-aircraft guns and fire was to prioritize the guns and targets. Generally the 5-inch or 4-inch guns with high angles would be assigned to dive and glide bombing, torpedo bombing and skip bombing. The medium ranges guns like the 40-mm, 1-inch or 25-mm would be assigned to the same targets when in range. The smaller guns like the 20-mm were assigned to dive or glide booming along with strafing attacks and torpedo plane and skip bombing attacks.

The guiding principles were accuracy and rate of fire. The best target is the nearest aircraft to the ship. Generally the gunners did not fire on retiring aircraft if there were other threatening targets. Range always guides the decision to fire and one must be careful of friendly fighters in the area.

There were three kinds of air attacks: Horizontal bombers, dive bombers and torpedo bombers.  Fighters would strafe from bow to stern and the reverse. Their mission was to force the open gun tub crews to hit the deck or get struck by machine gun bullets to enable the dive and torpedo bombers to have a safe run on the ships.  This mission is termed SEAD or suppression of enemy air defenses.

[orkel]

Developers, if you see this, do you think LAA is worth it in lategame over just using full MAA+HAA?