Late Game Submarines

[muir]

I can't figure out if this is a bug or a gameplay quirk, but I'm just getting demolished by submarines in the late game. I've had ASW research as High as long as it's been available (research level 19 in 1955), I try to outfit my DD and KE designs with the most ASW equipment possible, but the ASW value that the designs end up having seem kind of arbitrary. I've had some iterations actually lose ASW compared to previous designs despite having the same or more equipment with better ASW research. I've been making up for quality with quantity, with over 80 ships on TP, almost triple the requirement (mix of new and obsolete DDs, new KEs and obsolete CVs and CVLs), and I'm about to lose a war with USSR in which they have basically no surface fleet and have been blockaded continuously for years, but their 60-70 submarines are killing 100-150VP worth of merchant shipping each turn, with almost no submarine attrition.

Is there some key to ASW I'm missing? It doesn't seem like anyone else is having this issue, but nothing in the documentation stands out as and answer. I don't have any subs of my own because this playthroughs naval doctrine emphasizes surface blockades (and I'd rather spend the money on ships I actually have a chance of interacting with), but at some point are subs the key to defeating subs? Enemy subs have ended up being my biggest weakness in both of my RtW2 playthroughs, but this is the first time I'm going to lose a war entirely due to enemy subs and it's a little bit flabbergasting considering how dominant my surface fleet is.

[sloanjh]

Are you playing 1.7?  I've been hitting a bug in it where enemy subs don't have any effect on my merchant shipping, so it's interesting news if you're playing 1.7 and having your merchies get hit.

A couple of pointers:

1)  Don't click the "minesweeping equipment" box if you want ASW - it cuts the ASW value in half.  I suspect this is the source of the fluctuations you're seeing.
2)  The innate ASW value of a DD goes up with tonnage, so a 500ton DD has smaller ASW than an 800ton DD.
3)  I don't think the target number of TP ships has much if any effect any more.  The important numbers to look at are in the "ASW" box to the right of it.  That will look something like 143/12 - 770.  "143" is ASW from ships, "12" is from air power, and "770" is a mystery that no one's been able to figure out   I think some games it shows up as something like 550.  It is plausible, however, that this is how much ASW coverage you need.  I say this because I've been in the situation where the enemy has ~150 subs, I too was getting creamed until I got my ASW coverage up into that neighborhood.
4)  The trick for ASW (IMHO) is to build lots of small DD and never throw any away; instead refit them to ASW (often with a re-engine if they're very early to gain the tonnage to fit the equipment).

Hope that helps.

[jishmael]

There was a pretty big thread on the opness of subs a while ago.

First off your asw value should definitely not decrease with the same specs AFAIK. You can consistently churn out 10asw dds at 900 tons by the mid 30s to mid 40s depending on tech.
Make sure you don't add any minesweeping gear or mines as it halves asw.

I'm also pretty sure that asw, just as mine sweeping and mining, might not be global but depends on the sea zone your ships occupy. I'm not sure of this though, it's just a gut feeling.

I am firmly in the camp of thinking subs grossly and ahistorically over perform in this game.
Not only was I able to collapse the German government as Japan with coastal subs in 1905 (however that's supposed to work) they also decide wars at dates where they were outdone in tech and doctrine by escorts and aircraft in real history.

I've had multiple wars across multiple games where surface fleets and blockades feel like pointless diversions. A nation without any fleet or bases or resources can force surrender on multiple enemies in the same war if they have enough subs. I've been at both ends of this, loosing against, especially fascist or communist, governments which don't accept any peace but government collapse (which, suprise: subs cause the fastest and most reliable way) as well as completely destroying the opposition in 3:1 wars with nothing but subs.
And this dynamic stands until 1955.

So honestly at the current state of the game I consider subs a timeless and ahistoric and unfun super weapon.

[dohboy]

Aug 26, 2019 0:58:31 GMT -6 sloanjh said:

I've been hitting a bug in it where enemy subs don't have any effect on my merchant shipping, so it's interesting news if you're playing 1.7 and having your merchies get hit.

I'm getting the same thing. Really weird how some people get some issues and others don't. Like the angled flight deck/4 catapult thing, never has worked for me. Is it time for a fresh install? Did something get fudged in the update process?

[jwsmith26]

Aug 26, 2019 0:13:03 GMT -6 muir said:

Is there some key to ASW I'm missing? 

You didn't mention flying boats. They will take out enemy subs. I've seen a large PB fleet sink 4 subs per turn.

[sloanjh]

Aug 26, 2019 10:24:33 GMT -6 jwsmith26 said:

Aug 26, 2019 0:13:03 GMT -6 muir said:

Is there some key to ASW I'm missing? 

You didn't mention flying boats. They will take out enemy subs. I've seen a large PB fleet sink 4 subs per turn.

That being said, when I bump up the size of my PB squadrons I don't see an effect on the airpower ASW number.

[blackvoid]

Aug 26, 2019 8:11:27 GMT -6 dohboy said:

Aug 26, 2019 0:58:31 GMT -6 sloanjh said:

I've been hitting a bug in it where enemy subs don't have any effect on my merchant shipping, so it's interesting news if you're playing 1.7 and having your merchies get hit.

I'm getting the same thing. Really weird how some people get some issues and others don't. Like the angled flight deck/4 catapult thing, never has worked for me. Is it time for a fresh install? Did something get fudged in the update process?

Same, whole game for Russia from 1900 to 1950. no sunk cargo ships by subs. I am on 1.07.

Frequent "ship got mined" though. may be AI built all its subs as minelayers.

[dohboy]

Minelayers still have torpedoes though, just fewer reloads. I don't sink any enemy subs either, it's like they are sitting at the dock.

[victormagnus]

I'll add that I'm also getting (on 1.07) the "submarines do nothing" bug. In a few wars (as France, vs Germany and A-H), there's ~100 subs per side in the war theoretically running around, but very rarely will even a single merchie get sunk by them per month. Likewise, subs almost never get sunk on either side. That said, there's a fairly-reliable 1-2 cases per turn for each side of "X ship was torped and sent to the dockyard for repairs", so...they're doing something? I didn't have my subs on fleet-support doctrine, although maybe I should change that if they're doing nothing against merchies anyways.

[sloanjh]

Aug 30, 2019 12:07:38 GMT -6 victormagnus said:

I'll add that I'm also getting (on 1.07) the "submarines do nothing" bug. In a few wars (as France, vs Germany and A-H), there's ~100 subs per side in the war theoretically running around, but very rarely will even a single merchie get sunk by them per month. Likewise, subs almost never get sunk on either side. That said, there's a fairly-reliable 1-2 cases per turn for each side of "X ship was torped and sent to the dockyard for repairs", so...they're doing something? I didn't have my subs on fleet-support doctrine, although maybe I should change that if they're doing nothing against merchies anyways.

My experience is that my subs seem to be working fine in terms of sinking merchies and getting sunk in turn; it's only the enemy subs that seem to have zero activity.  I think (but am not sure) that this includes enemy subs getting sunk.  From my point of view, the behavior feels like the "ResolveSubCombat" function that fills in the table just isn't getting called at all for the enemy, only for me.