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Post by dizzy on Sept 21, 2019 16:49:03 GMT -6
Can you ditch Flying Boats for Medium Bombers as a functional scout plane flying from bases without the AI using either your torp or dive bombers in that role?
I was thinking in a pinch, when I don't have room for Flying Boats, I can just sub in some Medium bombers. But what priorities does the AI have when it comes to using planes as scouts?
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Post by aeson on Sept 21, 2019 18:18:41 GMT -6
But what priorities does the AI have when it comes to using planes as scouts? According to the game manual (pg. 44), the order of preference for land-based search aircraft is flying boat > medium bomber > floatplane scout > torpedo bomber > dive bomber > fighter. Assuming that that is correct and functioning within the game, then, you should be able to replace your flying boats with medium bombers for service as aerial scouts, and as long as you have enough serviceable medium bombers your airbases' dive and torpedo bombers should not be used for scout duty. Mind you, I have not tried this since flying boats have the additional function of attacking submarines on the interturn whereas medium bombers, to my knowledge, do not. |
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Post by dizzy on Sept 21, 2019 20:12:41 GMT -6
I always cringe every time someone starts by answering my question with, 'according to the manual'... makes me feel like an ass, lol for not reading it thoroughly enough. But honestly, even if you do, there's so much information in it, you're bound to miss something. So thanks for that, aeson. On a side note, anyone ever really use Medium bombers? What's their niche? Bases that aren't close to the front lines? |
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Post by dorn on Sept 21, 2019 20:46:51 GMT -6
I always cringe every time someone starts by answering my question with, 'according to the manual'... makes me feel like an ass, lol for not reading it thoroughly enough. But honestly, even if you do, there's so much information in it, you're bound to miss something. So thanks for that, aeson. On a side note, anyone ever really use Medium bombers? What's their niche? Bases that aren't close to the front lines? As UK I fought Russia. I have bases full medium bombers as any other type have not range to eastern Baltic. |
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Post by tbr on Sept 22, 2019 2:02:50 GMT -6
I like to use different types even late game as this staggers attacks a bit and contributes to a "broader" impact. At least in my impression, as soon as both flying boats and medium bombers have torpedoes, it pays to have both on an airbase to lower the probability of "pile-ons" where too many flights attack the same target.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Sept 22, 2019 11:56:03 GMT -6
The value of medium bombers grows as the game progresses and is greater in certain regions. I have found medium bombers to be quite effective once they can carry torpedoes or perform skip bombing. However, not all medium bombers can carry torpedoes. I make sure when I accept a design that I pick a model that can carry torps if one is available, even if the other stats are not the best. Medium bombers can eventually have a pretty amazing reach, allowing strikes that cross the Mediterranean (north-south). They are especially useful in the Pacific where distances are often too great for TBs or DBs.
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Post by L0ckAndL0ad on Sept 23, 2019 22:51:56 GMT -6
This was my own tactic as well. Replace flying boats with medium bombers entirely, as their range starts to allow it.
What I personally wonder is - do Medium Bombers have/give strategic spotting and ASW rating/effects? Because they definitely should have them. PV-1 Ventura, PV-2 Haproon P-2 Neptune, P-3 Orion, P-8 Poseidon... Maritime Patrol aircraft shouldn't necessarily have floats.
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Post by ulzgoroth on Sept 24, 2019 12:08:59 GMT -6
They're nice in sea zones where you care what happens outside single-engine plane range of your bases. At least if the ground control AI decides to send them somewhere useful.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Sept 24, 2019 15:08:44 GMT -6
This was my own tactic as well. Replace flying boats with medium bombers entirely, as their range starts to allow it. What I personally wonder is - do Medium Bombers have/give strategic spotting and ASW rating/effects? Because they definitely should have them. PV-1 Ventura, PV-2 Haproon P-2 Neptune, P-3 Orion, P-8 Poseidon... Maritime Patrol aircraft shouldn't necessarily have floats. Medium bombers can replace PB for search duties and they are better at naval attacks once they get improved weapons and attack techniques, but the only aircraft that have an ASW ability in RTW2 are PB. Expect to see a substantial fall off in your ability to destroy enemy submarines if you completely replace this type. |
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Post by noshurviverse on Sept 24, 2019 15:21:06 GMT -6
This was my own tactic as well. Replace flying boats with medium bombers entirely, as their range starts to allow it. What I personally wonder is - do Medium Bombers have/give strategic spotting and ASW rating/effects? Because they definitely should have them. PV-1 Ventura, PV-2 Haproon P-2 Neptune, P-3 Orion, P-8 Poseidon... Maritime Patrol aircraft shouldn't necessarily have floats. Medium bombers can replace PB for search duties and they are better at naval attacks once they get improved weapons and attack techniques, but the only aircraft that have an ASW ability in RTW2 are PB. Expect to see a substantial fall off in your ability to destroy enemy submarines if you completely replace this type. Although at this point it matters little as AI subs currently refuse to operate as merchant raiders. I have been meaning to ask, are the subs broken or is the AI just always assigning them to 'fleet support' for some reason? |
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Post by rodentnavy on Sept 28, 2019 3:45:13 GMT -6
Medium bombers can replace PB for search duties and they are better at naval attacks once they get improved weapons and attack techniques, but the only aircraft that have an ASW ability in RTW2 are PB. Expect to see a substantial fall off in your ability to destroy enemy submarines if you completely replace this type. Although at this point it matters little as AI subs currently refuse to operate as merchant raiders. I have been meaning to ask, are the subs broken or is the AI just always assigning them to 'fleet support' for some reason? Subs would appear to be broken as player controlled subs on fleet support are happily sinking merchant ships. The real annoyance is that AI subs do not die while the player's do. Going back to flying boats, I have a whimsical attachment to them as I like to think of them performing SAR during peacetime (and wartime when events allow). I did in fact end up my last campaign with both a quite satisfactory flying boat and a medium bomber, both with torpedo attack capacity and awesome range. |
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Post by noshurviverse on Sept 28, 2019 10:32:04 GMT -6
Perhaps one effect of Flying Boats could be that the more of them are present within an area, the less experience shot down planes would lose to represent more resources for search and rescue. While I know this is an unlocked tech, this could be an alternative method of implementing it.
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Post by dsilva44 on Oct 12, 2019 13:50:15 GMT -6
I don't fully understand the game only assigning ASW values to flying boats, and not to later medium bombers. There is plenty of historical context to medium bombers being used in anti-submarine patrols. As pointed out previously, aircraft like the PV-1 and PV-2 which were aircraft developed in the 1930s, plus aircraft like the PB4Y-1 Privateer, Fw-200 Condor, Vickers Wellington, Avro Shackleton, and more were all land-based long range patrol aircraft with anti-submarine capabilities. These aircraft were all used by their respective country's naval component specifically for scouting and sub-hunting, meaning that using only flying boats in this role severely limits historic representation in the game.
If a system were implemented where once medium bombers of a set capability (such as a minimum range requirement) or when the game starts using the Medium bomber3.acs file as of 1935, the game begins counting them as having ASW value. It would add to the strategic aspect of airbases from a naval perspective, as now a larger component of your air wing have a more varied and intrinsically useful range of capabilities. It allows for more aircraft to be used in a variety of roles, and can also add to the challenge that a portion of your operational medium bombers would not be available for anti-surface strikes, as they would be loaded for long range patrol or anti-submarine, thus making it harder to rely on your air wing to dwindle enemy forces before your surface fleet engages.
Just my thoughts, but I think that adding ASW value to medium bombers to supplement the phasing out of flying boats (especially into the jet age by late game) is more realistic. Also, I like the idea of the presence of flying boats helping keep more trained pilots in service due to SAR/CSAR missions.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 12, 2019 14:11:31 GMT -6
I don't fully understand the game only assigning ASW values to flying boats, and not to later medium bombers. There is plenty of historical context to medium bombers being used in anti-submarine patrols. As pointed out previously, aircraft like the PV-1 and PV-2 which were aircraft developed in the 1930s, plus aircraft like the PB4Y-1 Privateer, Fw-200 Condor, Vickers Wellington, Avro Shackleton, and more were all land-based long range patrol aircraft with anti-submarine capabilities. These aircraft were all used by their respective country's naval component specifically for scouting and sub-hunting, meaning that using only flying boats in this role severely limits historic representation in the game. If a system were implemented where once medium bombers of a set capability (such as a minimum range requirement) or when the game starts using the Medium bomber3.acs file as of 1935, the game begins counting them as having ASW value. It would add to the strategic aspect of airbases from a naval perspective, as now a larger component of your air wing have a more varied and intrinsically useful range of capabilities. It allows for more aircraft to be used in a variety of roles, and can also add to the challenge that a portion of your operational medium bombers would not be available for anti-surface strikes, as they would be loaded for long range patrol or anti-submarine, thus making it harder to rely on your air wing to dwindle enemy forces before your surface fleet engages. Just my thoughts, but I think that adding ASW value to medium bombers to supplement the phasing out of flying boats (especially into the jet age by late game) is more realistic. Also, I like the idea of the presence of flying boats helping keep more trained pilots in service due to SAR/CSAR missions. Three of the bombers that you mentioned were not medium bombers. The Shackleton, Condor and the PBY4 were four engine heavy bombers. Larger, longer ranged and able to carry more equipment. The Wellington was the only twin engine medium bomber. It wasn't that effective due to lack of endurance. The effective range of the medium bomber is about 2500 miles. |
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Post by dorn on Oct 12, 2019 14:59:23 GMT -6
I don't fully understand the game only assigning ASW values to flying boats, and not to later medium bombers. There is plenty of historical context to medium bombers being used in anti-submarine patrols. As pointed out previously, aircraft like the PV-1 and PV-2 which were aircraft developed in the 1930s, plus aircraft like the PB4Y-1 Privateer, Fw-200 Condor, Vickers Wellington, Avro Shackleton, and more were all land-based long range patrol aircraft with anti-submarine capabilities. These aircraft were all used by their respective country's naval component specifically for scouting and sub-hunting, meaning that using only flying boats in this role severely limits historic representation in the game. If a system were implemented where once medium bombers of a set capability (such as a minimum range requirement) or when the game starts using the Medium bomber3.acs file as of 1935, the game begins counting them as having ASW value. It would add to the strategic aspect of airbases from a naval perspective, as now a larger component of your air wing have a more varied and intrinsically useful range of capabilities. It allows for more aircraft to be used in a variety of roles, and can also add to the challenge that a portion of your operational medium bombers would not be available for anti-surface strikes, as they would be loaded for long range patrol or anti-submarine, thus making it harder to rely on your air wing to dwindle enemy forces before your surface fleet engages. Just my thoughts, but I think that adding ASW value to medium bombers to supplement the phasing out of flying boats (especially into the jet age by late game) is more realistic. Also, I like the idea of the presence of flying boats helping keep more trained pilots in service due to SAR/CSAR missions. You have aicraft - fighter, dive bomber, medium bomber etc. And than you have a mission which is carried out - air superiority, antisumbarine, antishipping etc.
It is quite usual that one type of aircraft can make several missions.
As a whole it would make system quite complex so I think that it is just simplification that each type do mission for which she was originally designed for.
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