Least Used guns

[unit24]

kinda wanna know what the least used guns in each class is as I'mma try to run an ARR by only using them, I already asked the Discord now i wanna know the Forums


To vote Please use this:
docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdGS06xweJsctTrZr3VsQh_GYe-4oFPbLUxrOQqu9vK7ognFA/viewform?usp=sf_link

any response on why would also be appreciated

[tbr]

Have fun trying a game without DP guns

Seriously, I think you need to ignore the 2" calibre for this to work...

[Noname117]

So looking at this list, I’d asses the gun calibers like this:
2” guns: only used on legacy auto-generated destroyer designs.
3” guns: used frequently by the AI in the early game, but not a weapon players use as much outside of early DDs and as DP armament for old refit cross-deck-firing BBs and BCs.
4” guns: mid game destroyer armament. Raider CL armament as well. And a DP gun caliber
5” guns: probably the best DP gun caliber, also used on some protected cruisers, as a common secondary armament, and on AA cruisers.
6” guns: main CL armament.
7” guns: kind of in an awkward place between 6” and 8” guns. They’re too large for the typical CL but too small for the typical CA. They might be found as secondary armament on some Bs, but 5”-6” guns just are better for dealing with destroyers as secondaries do.
8” guns: used by the AI, sometimes used by the player. They’re lighter armament for a CA, but can be the maximum gun caliber of a treaty and can also get auto-firing, making them a useful CA gun. Can also be used on early Olympia style CLs.
9” guns: exist in that awkward zone between 8” and 10.” Too big to get the potential advantages of 8, but not quite maximizing firepower like the 10” does.
10” guns: largest proper CA guns, also ideal secondaries for semi-dreadnoughts, and may be found on some second class Bs as well.
11” guns: weak pre-dreadnought armament. Not used by nations with access to 12” guns, but the nation’s which start out with them (Germany, Austria Hungary) do use them a lot until better guns come along.
12” guns: standard pre-dreadnought and 1st generation dreadnought armament.
13” guns: a bit awkward of a gun caliber, but still may be used on some dreadnoughts. The problem with heavy caliber weapons is the player often will use the best one available to them, which means there aren’t really good choices on heavy caliber guns to dissallow.
14” guns: standard super dreadnought armament.
15” guns: also standard super-dreadnought armament, although with more staying power.
16” guns: common mid game to late game BB armament with good staying power.
17” guns: probably not as used as the 16 and 18, however I could still see it being somewhat used.
18” guns: common super heavy BB gun.
19” guns: again in an awkward position between 18 and 20.
20” guns: heaviest guns in the game, used when they can be.

So I’d argue 2”, 7”, and 9” guns should definitely be allowed. Maybe 13”, 17”, and 19” guns as well, but I’d argue it’s hard to pick good BB guns to use. Maybe 11” guns too, even though those are found on German and Austro-Hungarian Bs?

[aeson]

Superheavy: The only calibers I use in this grouping are 17" occasionally and 18" rarely. The computer doesn't build anything that I feel that I need such guns to defeat, and even the 17" and 18" guns tend to be borderline-impractical on ships that I'm actually willing to pay for - all the more so considering that I can usually build carriers and often have at least halfway decent strike aircraft by the time I have any decent-quality guns heavier than 16".

Heavy: 11" is probably the caliber I least often use, because I've never been particularly impressed with the heavy-gun CAs that I've built - whether early-game Tsukuba-type first class cruisers or mid-/late-game Deutschland-type heavy cruisers - and unless you're Germany, Austria-Hungary, or Japan you're almost always going to have a better alternative for use by capital ships against capital ships available domestically, with only the occasional instances where you develop something like an 11"/Q1 before 12"/Q0 or anything heavier offering anything like a counterexample. Additionally, as the lightest available heavy gun, it's also perhaps the most severely limited by early-game constraints on the number of main battery guns you can install on the ship, because you can't offset a weight-of-fire disadvantage with volume of fire when you can only fit six or eight guns on the ship in the first place and a 1" smaller heavy gun is neither enough lighter to be the difference between six or seven or eight guns nor endowed with a notably-higher rate of fire.

Beyond that, 11", 12", and probably even 13" guns aren't really in the same league as 14", 15", and 16" guns, especially when the lighter guns lack a qualitative advantage - just look over the range and penetration data from the 1909 save state of my Great Britain AAR game:

or the range and penetration data from the 1964 save state of a USA game that I finished a while back:

and look at the differences in range and armor peneration (granted, the 11" guns in the 1909 dataset are further disadvantaged since they're Q- guns being compared against 12"/Q0, 14"/Q0, 15"/Q-, and 16"/Q- guns, the latter three being fairly advanced guns for 1909 and the former still being more advanced than the legacy-tech 11"/Q-). But, hey, at least 11"/Q- is arguably superior to 13"/Q-2, inasmuch as it has a greater maximum range and only slightly worse armor penetration while having a sufficiently lower tonnage cost to possibly fit a couple more guns without sacrificing much.

Mind you, I tend to prefer 15" and 16" guns for superdreadnoughts and fast battleships, so 13" and to a lesser extent 14" guns somewhat often find themselves used only on transitional designs - they're usually the first available battleship guns that are better than 12" but they're also not really at the point where I'm happy to call them good enough for all future designs (13" more so than 14"), so they tend to get stuck on the transitional designs between the early dreadnoughts and the late superdreadnoughts and fast battleships and may be passed over entirely

Medium: Personally, I think you should distinguish between the first class/heavy cruiser main battery guns (typically 7"-10" but sometimes also 6" and, on player designs, 11" or 12") and the second class/light cruiser main battery guns (5" and 6", maybe also 4"), but up to you.

- 5" is my preferred capital ship secondary battery from the dawn of the dreadnought period onwards, and is also my preferred main battery for CVs (if the DP version is available) and large destroyers. Sometimes chosen for CL main batteries, particularly later in the game as airpower starts becoming a larger concern.

- 6" tends to be my preferred CL main battery and is often used in predreadnought battleship secondary batteries. Also tends to be my caliber of choice for CA-type second class cruiser (~6,000t early-game CA) main batteries.

- 7" sometimes shows up as a predreadnought battleship secondary battery or for large second class/small first class cruisers (~6,000-8000t early-game CLs with 7" or 8" guns, similarly-sized CAs). I've also recently been experimenting with them as main batteries on midsize first class cruisers (~10,000t early-game CAs), with mixed results.

- 8" is probably the caliber I most often use for the intermediate battery on semidreadnoughts and, as with 7" guns, sometimes gets used on large second class/small first class cruisers. Sometimes gets used as a main battery on heavy cruisers, but I tend not to build many of them.

- 9" is probably the caliber I use most often on midsize first class cruisers and is sometimes used for the intermediate battery of a semidreadnought or on large first class cruisers (~12,000t+ early-game CAs), especially if it's better than my 10" gun. Occasionally gets used as a main battery armament on heavy cruisers, but I tend not to build many of them.

- 10" is probably the caliber I use most often on large first class cruisers and is sometimes used for the intermediate battery of a semidreadnought or on midsize first class cruisers. Occasionally gets used as a main battery armament on heavy cruisers, but I tend not to build many of them.

Overall, 7" and 8" are probably the calibers in this group that I least often use, with 8" probably being used very slightly more often. That said, if you discounted legacy and early-game CAs, 9" and 10" probably wouldn't be doing any better. 5", meanwhile, is probably my most widely-used gun, especially after the dawn of the dreadnought ear.

Light:

- 4" is my preferred tertiary gun on predreadnought battleships, DP secondary gun on heavy cruisers, and DP main gun on CVLs, second choice (after 5" DP) for CV main and fast battleship DP secondary guns. Also normally the primary armament of 700-1,000t DDs, and is sometimes selected as the armament for colonial/raiding cruisers, corvettes, and AMCs.

- 3" tends to be my choice for the main battery of 600-700t torpedo boats and sub-700t torpedo boat destroyers, and sometimes for the main battery of 700t torpedo boats and torpedo boat destroyers. Occasionally selected as the main or secondary battery on corvettes, sometimes shows up as the DP battery on CVLs and ships that didn't originally carry a DP battery.

- 2" tends to show up on 500t torpedo boats and as a secondary gun for early-game torpedo boat destroyers, mostly because 2" guns are cheaper and lighter than 3" guns and I don't expect much out of early-game DDs in a gunfight even when I give them more useful gun armaments. Also quite possibly the best gun in the game for any design intended for use in a role where cost is a much more important consideration than combat effectiveness - ASW/minesweeping/TP corvettes and destroyers, for example - though the savings are unlikely to amount to much because it's not like a couple 3" or 4" guns are much more expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Of these, I use 4" significantly more often and more widely than either of the others, and probably use 2" about as often as 3" - mostly because I typically go with either 2" / 3" / 4" main batteries on 500t (legacy) / 600t (second-generation) / 700t (third-generation) torpedo boats or (3" or 4")+2" / (4" or 3")+(2" or 3") / 4"+3" main+secondary batteries on 500t / 600t / 700t torpedo boat destroyers and then shift to a 'modern' destroyer (torpedo boat / torpedo boat destroyer hybrid) with a 4" main battery and no secondaries at 900 tons while rarely using 2" or 3" guns on anything else of any particular relevance.

Sept 22, 2019 16:34:08 GMT -6 tbr said:

Have fun trying a game without DP guns

Seriously, I think you need to ignore the 2" calibre for this to work...

In all honestly, I probably use 2" guns about as much as I use 3" guns - I prefer 4" guns to 3" guns for light ship secondary, heavy ship tertiary, and DP batteries; my legacy DD is frequently a six-tube torpedo boat with 2" popguns because because the 3" version either drops a knot or carries only one gun (usually goes to 3" on the 600t and either 4" or additional 3" on the 700t versions; 900t and heavier DDs use 4" or 5" guns and don't normally have secondary batteries); and cheap corvettes/AMCs somewhat often carry 2" guns because they're cheaper than 3" guns and it's not like I'm building them for their combat prowess.

Also, technically, any of the heavier guns can be DP guns with the tech for heavy AA shells, though the nominal date of development for those (1942) is a little on the late side and the tech can be skipped, so even if unit24 ends up using nothing between 2" and 7"+ it's not quite guaranteed that he or she won't have any DP-capable guns.

[dorn]

I agree generally with aeson, I will just add several things about some guns calibers.

4" - I use them usually on battlecruisers for quite a long time. You save some tonnage and main defence of battlecruisers against destroyers attack is speed. Usually for long time battlecruisers are just 3-6 knots slower than destroyers and in bad weather it is even less making torpedo runs easily evade. Sometimes I use 4" guns on till 1910 on battleships as smaller destroyers are easily stopped by 4" guns and later when large destroyers are available these older battleship are not primary targets.

9" - I use it quite often. They are usually not much worse (especially at game start in 1900) than 10" guns and quite reasonable weight could be saved

target main armament: 16" guns

I use sometimes 15" guns as till AI battlecruisers has standard 12" belt, 15" guns are more than enough. And even against battleship they have punch. Sometimes I have tried 17" guns however I find out that 16" guns are usually better as by 17" guns you usually go with lower barrels to ideal configurations (3x3, 2x4). I cannot see any reason for larger caliber guns.

Decision of guns if higher caliber has worse quality

It depends what ship I build. If it is economically build ships I go with lower caliber and better quality as penetration is similar and weight saving is important. If I design ship to be useful for long time I use maximum caliber even with -1 quality. As if I get +1 quality in reasonable time, ships can be refitted. Especially for capital ships it could be interesting choice increasing turret top armour making her still usefull. (something similar as in history Queen Elizabeth R class was useful for RN as their punch was still high even if their armour was not adequate)

[dougphresh]

I maintain that 2" guns should be able to be automatic and DP.

37-57mm automatic AA guns are definitely a thing and have an anti-surface role.

When missile are added I can see myself building Soviet corvettes with the missiles and double 2" DP Automatic mounts.

[aeson]

Sept 23, 2019 9:12:13 GMT -6 dougphresh said:

I maintain that 2" guns should be able to be automatic and DP.

37-57mm automatic AA guns are definitely a thing and have an anti-surface role.

When missile are added I can see myself building Soviet corvettes with the missiles and double 2" DP Automatic mounts.

DP-capable calibers are what the game considers to be "heavy" AAA, and ~2" has pretty much never been a "heavy" AA gun except inasmuch as SAMs have largely supplanted heavier guns in the traditional heavy AA role of area defense. Beyond that, the anti-surface roles for which ~2" guns were historically intended basically don't exist within the game - surface combatants along the lines of historical MTBs or other ultralight patrol/assault craft are rare to the point of virtual irrelevance within the game, and both historically and within the game ~2" guns are largely ineffective against even ships as light as typical legacy fleet DDs, all the more so later on when torpedoes really begin to have comparable or superior effective ranges to such light guns. Furthermore, 37-57mm is basically what the game considers to be "medium" AAA - 40mm is the only caliber specifically mentioned for medium AAA, but it's not unreasonable to fudge the (largely-unspecified) caliber of "medium" AA guns a bit away from the 'canonical' caliber in much the same way that some people call for example 13"/Q1 13.5" or 6"/Q- 5.9" - all the more so since the medium AA caliber isn't actually shown anywhere outside of a couple tech descriptions, making the 'canonical' caliber of medium AA much less visible than the 'canonical' caliber of main/secondary/tertiary battery guns.

Also, something like the Soviet missile corvettes that you reference carries ~2" guns far more as a last-ditch AA armament and a deterrent to attack by ultralight surface combatants along the lines of a WWII MTB or a speedboat full of guys carrying machine guns than as a practical AS weapon for use against comparable surface combatants. I'd think a missiles-and-M/LAAA-only design would make a perfectly satisfactory representation of such vessels as long as the game would allow it - it's not like having a pair of 2" guns in a DP main battery would somehow make it a more effective surface combatant against anything it'll actually encounter within the game, anyways.

[titanuranus]

I only really use 4 in, 5 in, 6in, 8in, 10 in, and 16 in if all guns are the same quality.

The 12-15 in get used for B/BC/BBs if they are especially high quality or the largest available.

2/3 get used sometimes for early DP secondaries.

4s get used for KEs to lighten load, since they can still kill subs, sometimes light DPs.

5 inch; Standard DD/DP guns
6 inch; CL gun
8 inch; Small CA guns/CLs until multi gun turrets
10 inch; heavy CA guns (rare or early)
16 inch; Standard BB once they are good quality

Super-heavies; I have considered using some for late-game extremely fast BBs, use the extreme range to pound the enemy from a distance.

Everything else can replace one of the archetypes if it is adjacent and of a higher quality.

[ulzgoroth]

I commonly use all light guns except 2", which are legacy junk, though I try to phase out all 3" in favor of 4"+ as time goes on.

7-9" guns I'd usually only use if an accident of technological progress puts them out ahead of other options as CA primaries or B/BB/BC secondaries. My latest game has a fair number of 7" secondaries because they are/were higher-quality guns than my 6". I've never seen much special merit in 8" despite the historical prominence, except for big gun protected cruisers.

Heavy guns I'll use whatever has good stats at the time, though that's probably not going to be 11" unless I had quality 1 in those while everything heavier was -1 or worse.

I don't think I've ever used any superheavy guns. Maybe some 17 in late-game BBs that never really used it?

[christian]

Sept 23, 2019 9:12:13 GMT -6 dougphresh said:

I maintain that 2" guns should be able to be automatic and DP.

37-57mm automatic AA guns are definitely a thing and have an anti-surface role.

When missile are added I can see myself building Soviet corvettes with the missiles and double 2" DP Automatic mounts.

they shouldnt even be given the opperatunity to have an autoloader beyond 1925 they should just be autocannons by default 


of litteraly every single 45-57mm gun in existance no gun fired slower than 20 rounds per minute on top of the fact that beyond 1920s none of them were non autocannons



by the 50s you had things like


SM-7 quad 45mm gun 135-160 rof single barrel 540-640 combined

quad 57mm ZIF-71 160-170 rof per barrel

quad 57mm used as main guns on soviet destroyer


www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_57mm-81_zif-71_Kanin_pic.jpg





also the french had a gatling 53mm gun 

www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Hotchkiss/Resources/hotchkiss53mmpho.jpeg
which was designed for use on ships


and a 47mm gatling for hips


www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Hotchkiss/Resources/hotchkiss47mmdec.jpeg




rate of fire for these guns were 30-60 rounds per minute depending on the training of the feed crew 

[ulzgoroth]

Well, that's kind of inaccurate.

The first gun I thought of technically isn't 45mm-57mm...it's only 37mm. But it's a single-shot gun that was produced starting in 1935.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.7_cm_SK_C/30

And the Hotchkiss 6-pounders, while certainly rather obsolete by that point, were deployed on boats and corvettes in WWII.