imryn
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by imryn on Oct 2, 2019 3:46:08 GMT -6
I am pretty new to RTW2 and am still experimenting with the airpower features. One thing I have noticed is that over time aircraft get bigger and this is implemented in the game by a greater tonnage cost per aircraft when designing ships. I have noticed it when re-fitting my CV's, with each successive refit I have to reduce the size of the airgroup to fit within the tonnage limit of the ship. This has caused me to come up with a couple of questions that I hope someone can help me with.
I know that the weight increase is applied when I refit a ship, but is it applied to ships between refits? When I deploy a new TB to the fleet is the added weight of the new aircraft added to all my carriers in service? If it is applied as the aircraft are deployed then all of my CV's are probably over weight most of the time. If it is only applied at refit then I am fine and I can just adjust the ship then.
There is a penalty for trying to operate more than 100 aircraft on a CV. Is this penalty applied based on the design airgroup size or the embarked airgroup size?
If the penalty is applied based on the design airgroup size then I will have to accept that my carrier airgroups will shrink over time. This is not a bad thing, and will give me incentive to keep building new CV's and scrapping old ones as the airgroup size drops.
If the penalty is applied based on the embarked airgroup size then it opens up possibilities. I could design carriers for airgroups bigger than 100 and then shrink the number during successive refits. As long as I only embark 100 aircraft I don't get penalised. I realise this is "wasted" space in the design, but it does serve some purpose - spotting size is based on design airgroup size so with a larger design airgroup I can launch bigger strikes. If I am limiting myself to 100 aircraft per CV it means that the ships have a greater service life before the design airgroup size drops below that threshold.
If my airgroup is made up of 40 x TB, 20 x DB, 40 x F then it would be nice to be able to spot 60 aircraft, and a design airgroup size of 114 gives me that.
So, can anyone help me with these questions?
|
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Oct 3, 2019 19:08:24 GMT -6
oldpop2000 I confess this formula doesn't make any sense to me. What about aircraft causes their weight to scale quadratically with number of planes? If anything, I would have expected some weight savings per airplane (multiple airplanes can utilize the same feature on the carrier). Worst case scenario, with nothing shared per plane at all, I would have expected linear scaling. But you're telling me it's the opposite. What am I missing? (Respectfully.)
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 3, 2019 19:28:22 GMT -6
oldpop2000 I confess this formula doesn't make any sense to me. What about aircraft causes their weight to scale quadratically with number of planes? If anything, I would have expected some weight savings per airplane (multiple airplanes can utilize the same feature on the carrier). Worst case scenario, with nothing shared per plane at all, I would have expected linear scaling. But you're telling me it's the opposite. What am I missing? (Respectfully.) Well, ok. I've deleted the post. Let's move on, I will let someone else solve the issue. |
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Oct 4, 2019 14:06:13 GMT -6
oldpop2000 I confess this formula doesn't make any sense to me. What about aircraft causes their weight to scale quadratically with number of planes? If anything, I would have expected some weight savings per airplane (multiple airplanes can utilize the same feature on the carrier). Worst case scenario, with nothing shared per plane at all, I would have expected linear scaling. But you're telling me it's the opposite. What am I missing? (Respectfully.) Well, ok. I've deleted the post. Let's move on, I will let someone else solve the issue. Very well. No offense was meant -- as I repeat here constantly, I'm not an expert. I was just curious how it would be the case. Cheers. |
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 4, 2019 14:43:16 GMT -6
Well, ok. I've deleted the post. Let's move on, I will let someone else solve the issue. Very well. No offense was meant -- as I repeat here constantly, I'm not an expert. I was just curious how it would be the case. Cheers. Actually, no offense was assumed. I can't provide historical solutions to this game, they are not relevant, so we move on. Let the team try to find a solution. |
|
|
|
Post by dohboy on Oct 4, 2019 20:22:28 GMT -6
Oldpop, I wish you would quit talking your ball and going home. I make an ass of myself on a regular basis and I don't erase the evidence and try to pretend I'm perfect. I was saving this topic for further discussion and now all I can think about is "WTF is he talking about?". We're all learning as we go, and you bring knowledge even when you blow the math.
Not saying I blew any math lately, and if you think I did you are dizzy on something. Come to think of it I don't care for editing all the crap my response would have applied to out either. Don't make me quote you every time in the entirety just to learn from your mistake.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 4, 2019 21:38:36 GMT -6
Springsharp is a warship design software but it is not configured for carriers. However, there is a trick that can be done to build one. Simply add tonnage to miscellaneous weight and take the square root. The result is the number of aircraft that the ship can carry. The second procedure is to multiply the length x beam and divide the result by 750. Now compare the two results and use the lower.
My idea is to reverse the first procedure. I guess you would take the number of aircraft for the carrier you are designing in the game, then square that figure and you should get the tonnage that the air wing will contribute to the ship design. My math skills have not been used in many decades but that is the gist of my suggestion.
I don't know if this is relevant to the game. Let my know if this helps or works, its fun for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 5, 2019 9:43:32 GMT -6
I've just started to play Japan circa 1920. I am building an aircraft carrier of 25,000 tons displacement. with a flight deck and air wing capacity of 60 planes. The ship design states that the weight is 8800 lbs., I assume pounds. A fighter in use in 1920 will weigh about 4000 lbs. A torpedo bomber probably will weight about 8000 LBS, a dive bomber would weigh about 6000 lbs.. This is maximum takeoff weight.
So, I know I am new but is that weight in the flight installations pounds or tons? If it tons, it is too heavy, if it is pounds it is too light. By my calculations, the weight of the air wing alone without regard to GSE and such, is about 360,000 lbs. in short tons. That is about 180 tons. Correct?
I could use some enlightenment. I honestly can't discuss the game and history, without playing the game and understanding how it operates.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 5, 2019 10:54:26 GMT -6
I have found in US Aircraft Carriers by Friedman some good weight information on aeronautics. For a 73 plane air wing, the total weight for aircraft and GSE was 238.4 tons normal. For the Essex class, with an air wing size of 91 aircraft, the aeronautical weight was 474.9 tons. This is in long tons, BTW. The weights use the F6F Hellcat in both cases, and the TBF Avengers. It does not record the dive bombers for the Essex but they were probably SB2C's. The Enterprise dive bombers were SBD-5's.
|
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Oct 5, 2019 11:26:04 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 5, 2019 11:41:59 GMT -6
I enjoy doing this crazy stuff. The empty weight of CV6 was 18267 tons and this includes the aeronautics. If we eliminate the aeronautics, the empty weight is 18,029. Now, total displacement fully loaded, was 25,484 tons. So, subtracting empty from total, we get(hopefully) 7455 tons. If we take the square root of that, we get an air wing size of about 86 aircraft. Now is that close? Actually it is because they did carry about 90 aircraft with some stored in the overhead. So the formulas seem to be close. But as I have said, my math is old, like me. I am just trying to get my arms around this and possibly give us some ideas to play with. |
|
|
|
Post by fredsanford on Oct 5, 2019 18:39:42 GMT -6
The weight for "aircraft" in RTW2 isn't just the airplanes, but all associated stores, crew (air and maint.), fuel, bombs etc. (I believe)
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 5, 2019 19:04:51 GMT -6
The weight for "aircraft" in RTW2 isn't just the airplanes, but all associated stores, crew (air and maint.), fuel, bombs etc. (I believe) Ok, then the weight figure almost has to be tons, which now makes sense. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 6, 2019 11:30:45 GMT -6
One of my sources is US Aircraft Carriers by Norman Friedman. The Appendix E is a little confusing to me. (Tonnage is in long tons - 2240)
Under the Weights they show Hull at 12,467 tons. Now with fittings, protection, machinery(dry), Armament, Equipment and Outfit, Aeronautics(includes aircraft) with two empty categories the light ship weight is 19,036 tons. That's ok.
Now, a new category is aircraft. Ammunition is 670 tons, Machinery liq. is 123 tons, complement is 243.8 tons, stores and PW are 495.8 tons, Lube Oil: ship and Aviation is 75.2 tons. Now, the std. displacement is 19576 tons. Those figures above add up to 1606 tons. If I add that to the light ships, I get 20,642 tons. Ok.
Now last category before the totals is RFW(real fluid weight?) is 310 tons, fuel oil is 2682.5 tons, diesel fuel is 71.5 tons, Avgas is 544.2 tons, Seawater Pro. is 23.8 tons. They don't add those but the subtotal is 3631.5 tons.
Now, if I add the last category subtotal to the second total, the answer is 24273.5 tons. But their displacement is 23,507.
What did I miss?
Ok. Let's add up the aviation weight.
Aeronautics - 238.4 tons
Aviation Ordnance - 387.2 tons
Avgas -544.2 tons
Complement - 243.8 tons - I assume that this is referring to the pilots and aircraft maintenance crews, not certain.
Lube Oils - 75.2 tons - as I said above this includes ship and aviation, no breakdown.
Ok, let's add this up. The aviation total is 1488 tons.
Well, that's what I have come up with, if I've interpreted the data correctly. If anyone has that book, please check out what I am doing. I am going to go through the book again for possible explanations.
|
|
imryn
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by imryn on Oct 8, 2019 5:49:59 GMT -6
... There is a penalty for trying to operate more than 100 aircraft on a CV. Is this penalty applied based on the design airgroup size or the embarked airgroup size? ... Does anyone have an answer to my original question? |
|
