|
|
Post by dizzy on Mar 8, 2020 15:16:42 GMT -6
I'm talking about firing torpedoes when there is a friendly ship in the way. TL/DR My own BC Toulouse took three torps at the start of combat from my own AI screening destroyers at first sight of enemy transports. I think I got one salvo off before my AI destroyers lit me up. Not a good way to start an Invasion defense mission. So I was looking forward to this David vs Goliath mission... Playing as France, I had just sunk 2 BB's and 3 BC's of the Ottoman Empire in the Mediterranean the mission before with three Toulouse class BC's. It was an extraordinary feat as I was up against the entire Ottoman Navy. The rest of the French Navy was in northern home waters to counter the numerically superior Germans and any forces from the USA that had all allied together with the Ottomans to stop my aggressive naval policies. In the previous fight two of my Toulouse BC's were damaged so extensively that they were in dock for months long repairs and that's when the Ottoman Navy decided to invade Sicily. Defending the newly acquired colony from a previous war with Italy, was the lone BC Toulouse, fresh off a confidence inspiring naval engagement and her few destroyer escorts. But damned if those destroyers were gonna be of any help. At the first sight of enemy transports, before any rounds were fired, they unleashed all their torps at the transports not caring lickety split for the fact that there was a HUGE Battlecruiser blocking line of sight between them and their target. Perhaps they figured the torps would go UNDER the Toulouse and they would all save Sicily from the Ottomans... but no. They did not. Idiots. Edit: News update: It has occured to the ministry of defense that certain crew members in charge of torpedo operations were in fact of Ottoman nationality and this has led to a re-examining of navy hiring and staffing practices concerning foreign sailors on board military naval vessels. The inquiry is ongoing. As for the fate of Sicily and the Toulouse or even of espionage... the ministry of defense has made no further public comments.  Toulouse.png (142.57 KB) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 10:54:44 GMT -6
Torpedoes are totaly unbalanced anyway. I put them always on low, because torpedo defence is in the damage control category and everything else in regards torpedoes is pretty much useless to the player´s nation. Only thing that my nation´s ships ever hit with torpedoes is either already dead or friendly.
|
|
|
|
Post by rob06waves2018 on Mar 9, 2020 13:10:17 GMT -6
Torpedoes are totaly unbalanced anyway. I put them always on low, because torpedo defence is in the damage control category and everything else in regards torpedoes is pretty much useless to the player´s nation. Only thing that my nation´s ships ever hit with torpedoes is either already dead or friendly. I don't know, they can be useful in the early game against pre-dreadnought and armoured cruisers. Generally, one hit will take them out and the technology of the anti-torpedo boat weapons isn't good enough. But I agree, once the average engagement range is above 10,000 yds, they're useless at best and a complete hinderence at worst. |
|
|
|
Post by dizzy on Mar 9, 2020 14:49:45 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by rs2excelsior on Mar 9, 2020 17:01:02 GMT -6
I posted a suggestion thread a month or two ago asking it the “Friendly Ship in line of fire” could be a warning rather than a hard stop (probably easier to code, and gives the player agency to take risky shots if warranted), but it didn’t seem to get much of any traction.
|
|
|
|
Post by rimbecano on Mar 9, 2020 19:52:49 GMT -6
Torpedoes are totaly unbalanced anyway. I put them always on low, because torpedo defence is in the damage control category and everything else in regards torpedoes is pretty much useless to the player´s nation. Only thing that my nation´s ships ever hit with torpedoes is either already dead or friendly. I don't know, they can be useful in the early game against pre-dreadnought and armoured cruisers. Generally, one hit will take them out and the technology of the anti-torpedo boat weapons isn't good enough. But I agree, once the average engagement range is above 10,000 yds, they're useless at best and a complete hinderence at worst. I've always found the opposite: torpedo ranges and small torpedo counts in the early game make it very difficult touse torpedos effectively, once the range gets out to 10kyd or so and destroyers are carrying 5+ torpedos each, then they become quite useful (and enemy destroyers become a serious threat). |
|
|
|
Post by kyle on Mar 9, 2020 19:58:12 GMT -6
I found torpedoes very useful in RTW and the same holds true in RTW2. I put torpedo research on high. I do agree with Dizzy though, you really have to be careful about your own forces. Also - very annoying - my screen is so rabid about pumping "fish" into an already dead enemy that they forget to screen my major ships. I'd be court marshaling captains if I were the admiral of that fleet!
|
|
|
|
Post by dizzy on Mar 9, 2020 20:30:06 GMT -6
Also - very annoying - my screen is so rabid about pumping "fish" into an already dead enemy that they forget to screen my major ships. I'd be court marshaling captains if I were the admiral of that fleet! That is another problem with AI behavior. Well said Kyle. |
|
|
|
Post by christian on Mar 10, 2020 4:25:34 GMT -6
personally i find torpedoes extremely powerfull at all times in the game since 2-4 usually shuts down a BB and fast destroyers kiting with waves of torpedoes are very effective
i usually find AI torpedoes are much more effective though since they can send full torpedo waves but due to
"friendly in the line of fire" thing you usually cant make any destroyer except the lead destroyer fire torpedoes and you need to rely on them to automatically do it
|
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Mar 10, 2020 10:18:17 GMT -6
Just a quick note: Although Captain's mode and "friendly ships in line of fire" has revealed the problem to us (both own ships firing when they should not, and more often ships not being able to fire when they should), I wrote the bug report to be general. It's like that Rear Admiral and Admiral difficulty are using the same algorithm for AI launching. If this bug affects Captains mode, it's likely to be working against everyone. [Edit: Sorry, I'm a dummy. dizzy 's post is exactly about the AI torpedo usage. So yes, there is a problem with the torpedo algorithm. I'm willing to try my hand at an algorithmic solution, too.] |
|
|
|
Post by rimbecano on Mar 10, 2020 12:27:27 GMT -6
[Edit: Sorry, I'm a dummy. dizzy 's post is exactly about the AI torpedo usage. So yes, there is a problem with the torpedo algorithm. I'm willing to try my hand at an algorithmic solution, too.] I'm not sure that the apparent discrepancy in the application of friendly-fire blocking isn't just a matter of perception, though. Computers don't get bored, so the AI is willing to check for a solution on *every* turn, whereas the player only checks at moments he judges to be critical. And I've certainly seen my AI destroyers fail to fire when they seemed to be in perfect position. It's also possible that the AI behaves in ways that make it less likely to trigger the friendly fire block. For example, the AI makes much more aggressive use of turn together with destroyer squadrons than I do (though from what I've seen of how the friendly fire block works I'd expect that particular item to make the AI more likely to trigger the block). But whether or not the AI is affected by the friendly fire block, what *is* certain is that something is squirrely with the friendly fire block itself. I'd like to reiterate my request for the developers to please, please, pretty please set something up so we can see the shot geometry, including the courses and projected positions of the torpedo, target, and interfering ship when the friendly fire blocker is triggered so we can submit quantifiable bug reports showing the exact problem, instead of just saying "something is squirrely here". |
|
|
|
Post by rodentnavy on Mar 10, 2020 13:04:54 GMT -6
[Edit: Sorry, I'm a dummy. dizzy 's post is exactly about the AI torpedo usage. So yes, there is a problem with the torpedo algorithm. I'm willing to try my hand at an algorithmic solution, too.] I'm not sure that the apparent discrepancy in the application of friendly-fire blocking isn't just a matter of perception, though. Computers don't get bored, so the AI is willing to check for a solution on *every* turn, whereas the player only checks at moments he judges to be critical. And I've certainly seen my AI destroyers fail to fire when they seemed to be in perfect position. It's also possible that the AI behaves in ways that make it less likely to trigger the friendly fire block. For example, the AI makes much more aggressive use of turn together with destroyer squadrons than I do (though from what I've seen of how the friendly fire block works I'd expect that particular item to make the AI more likely to trigger the block). But whether or not the AI is affected by the friendly fire block, what *is* certain is that something is squirrely with the friendly fire block itself. I'd like to reiterate my request for the developers to please, please, pretty please set something up so we can see the shot geometry, including the courses and projected positions of the torpedo, target, and interfering ship when the friendly fire blocker is triggered so we can submit quantifiable bug reports showing the exact problem, instead of just saying "something is squirrely here". When playing on rear-admiral mode I have to keep a wary eye on my destroyers, especially when around sinking enemy hulks. They blithely fire torpedoes without warning or restraint, not merely at ranges that reduce the odds of a hit on the target but also at ranges and angles that mean I am suddenly having to haul capital ships or cruisers out of danger. I think this is one of the frustrations. The other is actually seeing the wild abandon with which friendly torpedoes are fired off in bizarre and yes counter productive solutions that would never in a month of Sundays intersect with the course of the enemy but can sometimes force some wild manoeuvring by your own side though they mostly just disappear into the ocean deeps comfortably far away from anyone. |
|
|
|
Post by rimbecano on Mar 10, 2020 15:20:11 GMT -6
The other is actually seeing the wild abandon with which friendly torpedoes are fired off in bizarre and yes counter productive solutions that would never in a month of Sundays intersect with the course of the enemy but can sometimes force some wild manoeuvring by your own side though they mostly just disappear into the ocean deeps comfortably far away from anyone. Most of this falls under the heading of "firing at too long a range". It can *really* surprise you what kind of lead angles are necessary when firing at low speed settings against fast ships. And then when the enemy changes course, the torpedo ends up further from the enemy than it was at launch. |
|
