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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 1, 2020 9:22:55 GMT -6
This is a quote from the manual page 19. Nice idea except I cannot build AMC's until a war starts and by that time, I may not have enough time to design, build then rebuild as a carrier.
I suggest this be modified so that an AMC can be built anytime but not used or deployed until converted to a carrier. Possibly building during peacetime would push the ship into mothballs until the war or until converted.
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Post by DeMatt on Apr 2, 2020 17:32:46 GMT -6
Huh... Apparently AMCs are limited to 21 knots, but can have TPS. I haven't tested the other restriction ("limit on the number of fast liners"), beyond starting a batch of 12 AMCs as USA... then scrapping them all because they cost too much at that point. Also haven't tested the AMC -> CVL part yet, 'cuz the war in my savegame keeps ending on me.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 2, 2020 19:07:59 GMT -6
Huh...
Apparently AMCs are limited to 21 knots, but can have TPS. I haven't tested the other restriction ("limit on the number of fast liners"), beyond starting a batch of 12 AMCs as USA... then scrapping them all because they cost too much at that point. Also haven't tested the AMC -> CVL part yet, 'cuz the war in my savegame keeps ending on me.
Good work. It's what I expected. |
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Post by aeson on Apr 2, 2020 19:58:56 GMT -6
Apparently AMCs are limited to 21 knots The speed limit for AMCs increases to 25 knots in 1925. |
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Post by dia on Apr 2, 2020 20:19:05 GMT -6
I was thinking why not give the player the ability to buy civilian vessels for this purpose instead. The current way is just a workaround that only works in wartime. You make a request for a fast liner/merchantman and set what general tonnage and speed requirements you're looking for. It comes at a purchasing price though and you may or may not get exactly what you wanted, but always enough to make a legal CVL. Instead of the the ship showing up in your fleet, you're sent to the rebuild interface with a random generated design based on the specs you got. At this point you design your converted CVL and hit save. It will only save if the design is a legal CVL (which means something will have to be done about the bug that allows you to make CVL battlecarriers). Once saved the ship will be placed in the construction list. Typically the player can design, throw out designs, and save ships at their leisure, but this would be the one case where the player HAS to save the design to continue playing. It would probably work better to make this process part of the strategic turn. The request would be made during the players turn and the results and designing would come after the player ends his turn. Perhaps there could also be a possibility of a delay in finding the suitable candidate or the player is given an option to "keep looking" Some other specials rules and features would really make this interesting: - You can request one CVL a month as many times as you like, but the price of purchasing fast liner/merchantman will begin to rise exponentially to avoid abuse, especially as carrier tech advances. Make prestige hits a thing too so that the player will be discouraged from buying more than 3 or 4. Those numbers don't have to be set in stone, but I think it's better than limiting the player to one.
- Purchasing during peacetime would be much more expensive than in wartime, but the price and availability would also be dependent on national attributes and government types. Nations like AH or Russia would have a harder time finding what they need. Likewise the more authoritarian the government, the more likely you are to simply get what you what at a price you're demanding.
- Availability would also be dependent on the length of time at war. The earlier in the war, the more likely you are to get the fastest and/or largest ships. Having shortages may end with your people spending months looking for a candidate.
- For a short time after you build your first converted CVL (basically before you get the Aircraft carrier conversion tech) AND if you are at war, there's a small chance you'd be presented with an event that an enemy fast-liner has been seized/captured as a prize. Then you are asked if you want to use it for conversion to a CVL or press it into auxiliary service. Other than the cost of the rebuild, it would be a free ship. As an added feature, if the war is loss of any degree, the enemy seizes the ship back as a CVL. Once you reach Aircraft carrier conversion tech, this event cannot happen.
- Once Large aircraft carrier tech is reached (Enabling purpose built CV), this system is ended.
- Add a new tech level to Shipboard aircraft operations - the Escort Carrier. Basically after this tech is reached, the system comes back with some changes. The first point above no longer applies, but the following two do with the exception that purchasing can now only be done during wartime. There is also speed and tonnage caps on what you get so that you can no longer request the fastest and largest sized ships. Basically this is to simulate the escort carrier without creating a new class. It would still be a CVL and would not disappear after the war. Why would any player choose to build such small CVLs? Maybe your carrier fleet has been decimated and you need a relatively cheap and quickly built flat tops. Or maybe you just want some cheap tin cans to provide CAP for your slower than dirt battle wagons. Or maybe you like putting CVLs on ASW duty. This would mostly simulate how the Japanese converted several liners to escort carriers leading up to and during WW2. And to a lesser extent early US Navy escort carriers that were converted merchants.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I wanted to throw this suggestion out there.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 2, 2020 20:30:32 GMT -6
I was thinking why not give the player the ability to buy civilian vessels for this purpose instead. The current way is just a workaround that only works in wartime. You make a request for a fast liner/merchantman and set what general tonnage and speed requirements you're looking for. It comes at a purchasing price though and you may or may not get exactly what you wanted, but always enough to make a legal CVL. Instead of the the ship showing up in your fleet, you're sent to the rebuild interface with a random generated design based on the specs you got. At this point you design your converted CVL and hit save. It will only save if the design is a legal CVL (which means something will have to be done about the bug that allows you to make CVL battlecarriers). Once saved the ship will be placed in the construction list. Typically the player can design, throw out designs, and save ships at their leisure, but this would be the one case where the player HAS to save the design to continue playing. It would probably work better to make this process part of the strategic turn. The request would be made during the players turn and the results and designing would come after the player ends his turn. Perhaps there could also be a possibility of a delay in finding the suitable candidate or the player is given an option to "keep looking" Some other specials rules and features would really make this interesting: - You can request one CVL a month as many times as you like, but the price of purchasing fast liner/merchantman will begin to rise exponentially to avoid abuse, especially as carrier tech advances. Make prestige hits a thing too so that the player will be discouraged from buying more than 3 or 4. Those numbers don't have to be set in stone, but I think it's better than limiting the player to one.
- Purchasing during peacetime would be much more expensive than in wartime, but the price and availability would also be dependent on national attributes and government types. Nations like AH or Russia would have a harder time finding what they need. Likewise the more authoritarian the government, the more likely you are to simply get what you what at a price you're demanding.
- Availability would also be dependent on the length of time at war. The earlier in the war, the more likely you are to get the fastest and/or largest ships. Having shortages may end with your people spending months looking for a candidate.
- For a short time after you build your first converted CVL (basically before you get the Aircraft carrier conversion tech) AND if you are at war, there's a small chance you'd be presented with an event that an enemy fast-liner has been seized/captured as a prize. Then you are asked if you want to use it for conversion to a CVL or press it into auxiliary service. Other than the cost of the rebuild, it would be a free ship. As an added feature, if the war is loss of any degree, the enemy seizes the ship back as a CVL. Once you reach Aircraft carrier conversion tech, this event cannot happen.
- Once Large aircraft carrier tech is reached (Enabling purpose built CV), this system is ended.
- Add a new tech level to Shipboard aircraft operations - the Escort Carrier. Basically after this tech is reached, the system comes back with some changes. The first point above no longer applies, but the following two do with the exception that purchasing can now only be done during wartime. There is also speed and tonnage caps on what you get so that you can no longer request the fastest and largest sized ships. Basically this is to simulate the escort carrier without creating a new class. It would still be a CVL and would not disappear after the war. Why would any player choose to build such small CVLs? Maybe your carrier fleet has been decimated and you need a relatively cheap and quickly built flat tops. Or maybe you just want some cheap tin cans to provide CAP for your slower than dirt battle wagons. Or maybe you like putting CVLs on ASW duty. This would mostly simulate how the Japanese converted several liners to escort carriers leading up to and during WW2. And to a lesser extent early US Navy escort carriers that were converted merchants.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I wanted to throw this suggestion out there.
No worries, you are contributing excellent ideas and that is the reason for the thread. |
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Post by liam556 on Apr 3, 2020 1:28:04 GMT -6
I was thinking why not give the player the ability to buy civilian vessels for this purpose instead. The current way is just a workaround that only works in wartime. You make a request for a fast liner/merchantman and set what general tonnage and speed requirements you're looking for. It comes at a purchasing price though and you may or may not get exactly what you wanted, but always enough to make a legal CVL. Instead of the the ship showing up in your fleet, you're sent to the rebuild interface with a random generated design based on the specs you got. At this point you design your converted CVL and hit save. It will only save if the design is a legal CVL (which means something will have to be done about the bug that allows you to make CVL battlecarriers). Once saved the ship will be placed in the construction list. Typically the player can design, throw out designs, and save ships at their leisure, but this would be the one case where the player HAS to save the design to continue playing. It would probably work better to make this process part of the strategic turn. The request would be made during the players turn and the results and designing would come after the player ends his turn. Perhaps there could also be a possibility of a delay in finding the suitable candidate or the player is given an option to "keep looking" Some other specials rules and features would really make this interesting: - You can request one CVL a month as many times as you like, but the price of purchasing fast liner/merchantman will begin to rise exponentially to avoid abuse, especially as carrier tech advances. Make prestige hits a thing too so that the player will be discouraged from buying more than 3 or 4. Those numbers don't have to be set in stone, but I think it's better than limiting the player to one.
- Purchasing during peacetime would be much more expensive than in wartime, but the price and availability would also be dependent on national attributes and government types. Nations like AH or Russia would have a harder time finding what they need. Likewise the more authoritarian the government, the more likely you are to simply get what you what at a price you're demanding.
- Availability would also be dependent on the length of time at war. The earlier in the war, the more likely you are to get the fastest and/or largest ships. Having shortages may end with your people spending months looking for a candidate.
- For a short time after you build your first converted CVL (basically before you get the Aircraft carrier conversion tech) AND if you are at war, there's a small chance you'd be presented with an event that an enemy fast-liner has been seized/captured as a prize. Then you are asked if you want to use it for conversion to a CVL or press it into auxiliary service. Other than the cost of the rebuild, it would be a free ship. As an added feature, if the war is loss of any degree, the enemy seizes the ship back as a CVL. Once you reach Aircraft carrier conversion tech, this event cannot happen.
- Once Large aircraft carrier tech is reached (Enabling purpose built CV), this system is ended.
- Add a new tech level to Shipboard aircraft operations - the Escort Carrier. Basically after this tech is reached, the system comes back with some changes. The first point above no longer applies, but the following two do with the exception that purchasing can now only be done during wartime. There is also speed and tonnage caps on what you get so that you can no longer request the fastest and largest sized ships. Basically this is to simulate the escort carrier without creating a new class. It would still be a CVL and would not disappear after the war. Why would any player choose to build such small CVLs? Maybe your carrier fleet has been decimated and you need a relatively cheap and quickly built flat tops. Or maybe you just want some cheap tin cans to provide CAP for your slower than dirt battle wagons. Or maybe you like putting CVLs on ASW duty. This would mostly simulate how the Japanese converted several liners to escort carriers leading up to and during WW2. And to a lesser extent early US Navy escort carriers that were converted merchants.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I wanted to throw this suggestion out there.
This is easily one of the best suggestions I've ever seen here. I hope this happens. |
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Post by dia on Apr 3, 2020 15:24:05 GMT -6
This is easily one of the best suggestions I've ever seen here. I hope this happens. Thanks. Most of that came to me while writing the post. I really like the idea of buying vessels for CVL conversion, but it'll probably take a lot of thought trying to keep things balanced. For the devs, it would be a lot of work for little gain if all the player uses it for is his first CVL conversion over a very short period of game time. On the other hand you don't want to create a system where the player can buy an unrealistic fleet of converted CVLs. The Escort Carrier tech concept keeps the system in play late game. I know lots of people ask for a escort carriers, but the devs don't like adding new niche ship classes. Much like KE covers multiple niche classes, this system would allow players to get their Escort Carriers without a new class. You have to put tonnage restrictions and maybe speed restrictions on escort carriers though (Keep in mind this would still allow players to design and build escort carriers if they fit the restrictions). I was thinking maybe 10,000 tons similar to the purpose-built USN Casablanca-class escort carrier. Interestingly enough some of the IJN converted escort carriers my system would mostly represent had greater displacements than the current game's CVL 16,000 ton limit. Aside from being used in desperation (IJN case), perhaps there could be some new conditions for encouraging players to want to use small CVLs/converted escort carriers like the USN did. One possible idea is to add a new design option in the Flight installations, Missiles tab. Off the the top of my head, a checkmark box for Carry more General purpose bombs and ASW equipment which would sacrifice anti-shipping ordnance for ground attack ordnance and aerial depth charges. The ASW score of the ship would increase a lot and there would also be a bonus to invasion success if said ship is in the same sea zone as an ongoing invasion battle. The catch is that the aircraft assigned to the ship can only carry GP bombs (no AP or SAP) and a very limited supply of torpedoes. This feature can only be used on CVLs less than 10,000 tons because the Naval board would never allow larger carriers to not carry anti-shipping ordnance. CVL's with this feature would be treated slightly differently by the battle generator, much like how battleships with speeds over 27knots are treated as fast battleships or CLs with DP main guns are more likely to be assigned as carrier screens. I'm really starting to go off topic now (since this Escort Carriers concept could be also applied to purpose-built ships as long as they were less than 10,000 tons), but back to the main point, the conversion. This purchase and convert feature doesn't just have to be about liners. It could cover purchasing any civilian or auxiliary ship for the purpose of converting. Colliers, seaplane tenders, oilers, etc could be the source instead. Perhaps getting an auxiliary ship would be a lucky bonus to the player for it results in a cheaper purchasing price. Much like conditions that affect the price and availability of purchasing liners, there could be conditions for increasing the chances of scoring an auxiliary: - Being at war for a long time AND having a higher victory score AND not having shortages/lack of fuel (assumes the navy has had plenty of time to build up auxiliaries and is not suffering shortages of ships)
- Being within one year of a war's end (Assumes the Navy has auxiliaries it no longer needs)
- Being within two years of researching Oil Firing AND having access to oil or post-1920 (universal access to oil) (Assumes the navy now has colliers it no longer needs)
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 4, 2020 7:34:28 GMT -6
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Post by jwsmith26 on Apr 9, 2020 10:05:45 GMT -6
This is a quote from the manual page 19. Nice idea except I cannot build AMC's until a war starts and by that time, I may not have enough time to design, build then rebuild as a carrier. I suggest this be modified so that an AMC can be built anytime but not used or deployed until converted to a carrier. Possibly building during peacetime would push the ship into mothballs until the war or until converted. , your basic understanding of how this system works in the game is inaccurate. You do not need to complete the conversion of an AMC into a carrier _during_ the war, rather you simply need to _begin_ the conversion during the war. The process of course requires the "building" of an AMC, which must start and end during the war - a total time of 4 months to complete. The turn that the AMC completes you may immediately begin the carrier conversion process. Even if the war ends on turn 5 your carrier conversion will complete during the following peace. (BTW, I don't believe the process of "building" an AMC actually simulates building an AMC from scratch, rather it simulates converting an existing civilian ship into an armed raider.) dia : "Make prestige hits a thing too so that the player will be discouraged from buying more than 3 or 4. Those numbers don't have to be set in stone, but I think it's better than limiting the player to one."The game actually allows you to convert two AMCs into carriers, not just one. I'm not fond of hard restrictions like this, so restrictions along the lines of what you suggest would be preferable for the current system, though I'm not sure why converting carriers from civilian ships would cause a prestige hit. I do like your idea of being presented with a random selection of likely civilian ships that could be purchased for conversion, a selection that gets narrower and provides smaller ships as the war progresses. Such a reduction in the quality of available ships would provide a much more natural check on these types of conversions. The current system provides too much control over the characteristics of the AMC to be converted, essentially allowing you to design the perfect candidate for conversion. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 9, 2020 10:56:25 GMT -6
This is a quote from the manual page 19. Nice idea except I cannot build AMC's until a war starts and by that time, I may not have enough time to design, build then rebuild as a carrier. I suggest this be modified so that an AMC can be built anytime but not used or deployed until converted to a carrier. Possibly building during peacetime would push the ship into mothballs until the war or until converted. , your basic understanding of how this system works in the game is inaccurate. You do not need to complete the conversion of an AMC into a carrier _during_ the war, rather you simply need to _begin_ the conversion during the war. The process of course requires the "building" of an AMC, which must start and end during the war - a total time of 4 months to complete. The turn that the AMC completes you may immediately begin the carrier conversion process. Even if the war ends on turn 5 your carrier conversion will complete during the following peace. (BTW, I don't believe the process of "building" an AMC actually simulates building an AMC from scratch, rather it simulates converting an existing civilian ship into an armed raider.) dia : "Make prestige hits a thing too so that the player will be discouraged from buying more than 3 or 4. Those numbers don't have to be set in stone, but I think it's better than limiting the player to one."The game actually allows you to convert two AMCs into carriers, not just one. I'm not fond of hard restrictions like this, so restrictions along the lines of what you suggest would be preferable for the current system, though I'm not sure why converting carriers from civilian ships would cause a prestige hit. I do like your idea of being presented with a random selection of likely civilian ships that could be purchased for conversion, a selection that gets narrower and provides smaller ships as the war progresses. Such a reduction in the quality of available ships would provide a much more natural check on these types of conversions. The current system provides too much control over the characteristics of the AMC to be converted, essentially allowing you to design the perfect candidate for conversion. Excellent and I appreciate your information. I would still like to build commercial tankers and fast liners that I can convert to escort and light carriers. This was what the US and Japanese actually did. So, I am asking for the ability to either build those commercial ships or use some that are available in the game, limited amount of course. Then take those ships and resign them as carriers. |
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Post by dorn on Apr 9, 2020 14:37:44 GMT -6
You are practically building fast liners etc.
As designing AMC, you describe which type of commercial ships (tanker, cargo ship, fast liner) is basic for such design. Game abstract this quite a lot and I think it is quite good abstraction for such minor thing.
In history:
- actual ship
- rebuilt to carrier
In RTW
- actual ship (hide in system)
- rebuilt to AMC (you define the hidden ship)
- rebuilt to carrier
So there is one step more but I do not think that it is real issue as you have advantage exactly design ship for rebuilt as in history you can only used ship which was built.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 9, 2020 15:02:52 GMT -6
You are practically building fast liners etc. As designing AMC, you describe which type of commercial ships (tanker, cargo ship, fast liner) is basic for such design. Game abstract this quite a lot and I think it is quite good abstraction for such minor thing. In history: - actual ship - rebuilt to carrier In RTW - actual ship (hide in system) - rebuilt to AMC (you define the hidden ship) - rebuilt to carrier So there is one step more but I do not think that it is real issue as you have advantage exactly design ship for rebuilt as in history you can only used ship which was built. OK, so much for that idea. Y'all know, I think this was my last suggestion..... they go nowhere. |
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Post by aeson on Apr 9, 2020 19:11:37 GMT -6
The game actually allows you to convert two AMCs into carriers, not just one. Not exactly:  As far as I am aware, there is no limit on the number of AMCs you can convert into carriers; what the game actually does is limit you to two of the "fast" (22-25kn) AMCs, which are more suitable for carrier conversion due to their higher original speeds. For any AMC-to-carrier conversions beyond that, you have to work with the "slow" (<=21kn) AMCs, which works well enough for something along the lines of a historical CVE - most of them didn't have speeds over 20 knots anyways (note: if you have a design speed lower than 20 knots - before accounting for bulges - then you need to have flight deck catapults) - or an early carrier like Argus or Langley, and if you're willing to shell out for an engine rebuild on a 20- or 21-knot AMC you can probably get something fast enough to be a low-end fleet carrier like Hiyo, Jun'yo, or Ryuho, as with the 26kn version in the screenshot above - but at that point the cost and time required for the conversion starts to become pretty similar to what it'd take to just build a new CVL from the keel up. Your suggestion at least produced a discussion in the Suggestions forum, which is more than can be said of many of the other threads here.
I personally think that having some way of allowing the player access to a hull for early carrier conversion beyond simply assuming that there's a suitable seaplane carrier or an old battleship, battlecruiser, or armored cruiser on hand that can be converted at negligible cost to fleet strength would be nice, because I often want to divest myself of my predreadnought-era battleships and armored cruisers about five years before I develop the ability to convert a ship into an aircraft carrier, it's rare for any of my dreadnought-era warships to be suitable for conversion to CVLs and even more rare that one would make a CV that could be described as anything other than bad, and the timing for building a big seaplane carrier that you can then convert into a decent CVL is in my experience hit-or-miss.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 9, 2020 20:15:41 GMT -6
The game actually allows you to convert two AMCs into carriers, not just one. Not exactly:
As far as I am aware, there is no limit on the number of AMCs you can convert into carriers; what the game actually does is limit you to two of the "fast" (22-25kn) AMCs, which are more suitable for carrier conversion due to their higher original speeds. For any AMC-to-carrier conversions beyond that, you have to work with the "slow" (<=21kn) AMCs, which works well enough for something along the lines of a historical CVE - most of them didn't have speeds over 20 knots anyways (note: if you have a design speed lower than 20 knots - before accounting for bulges - then you need to have flight deck catapults) - or an early carrier like Argus or Langely, and if you're willing to shell out for an engine rebuild on a 20- or 21-knot AMC you can probably get something fast enough to be a low-end fleet carrier like Hiyo, Jun'yo, or Ryuho, as with the 26kn version in the screenshot above - but at that point the cost and time required for the conversion starts to become pretty similar to what it'd take to just build a new CVL from the keel up. Your suggestion at least produced a discussion in the Suggestions forum, which is more than can be said of many of the other threads here.
I personally think that having some way of allowing the player access to a hull for early carrier conversion beyond simply assuming that there's a suitable seaplane carrier or an old battleship, battlecruiser, or armored cruiser on hand that can be converted at negligible cost to fleet strength, because I often want to divest myself of my predreadnought-era battleships and armored cruisers about five years before I develop the ability to convert a ship into an aircraft carrier, it's rare for any of my dreadnought-era warships to be suitable for conversion to CVLs and even more rare that one would make a CV that could be described as anything other than bad, and the timing for building a big seaplane carrier that you can then convert into a decent CVL is in my experience hit-or-miss.
My problem... belay that, my focus is on realism based on my decades of research and work. But it does or can't be applied to war games because then the game is a reproduction of history. It doesn't allow the player to take "the path not taken". My suggestion here on this thread was based on realistic history, not fantasy. But sometimes we have to just accept fantasy and enjoy. That's what I am saying. But I agree with your idea and that is what I am driving at here on this thread. Let me provide one example. You build a carrier in 1935 with a certain quantity of aircraft fuel storage. Now five years later, you have developed faster aircraft for the ship. The problem is that faster aircraft burn more fuel, trust me they do. So, now, does my 1935 carrier have enough fuel storage or do I now have to develop UNREP to keep the fuel quantity up to requirements? The game can't duplicate this, but it is a vital component of naval warfare in the age of naval aviation. Believe me that the Japanese found this out when they developed large, faster dive bombers, torpedo bombers and better, faster Zero fighters like the Model 32 or Model 52. Both new models had the same fuel tank storage, but had newer, bigger engines that gulped fuel and decreased range without external fuel tanks. The British found this out when they purchased our aircraft. They were bigger, faster and yup, they required more fuel. Anyway, enough of me. Thanks for your encouraging remarks. They are appreciated. |
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