jma286
Junior Member
Posts: 97 
|
Post by jma286 on Aug 12, 2015 21:55:02 GMT -6
It still seems that in over half the times when my battle line passes within 1.5 miles of an utterly crippled enemy ship, one or more of my ships suffers a torpedo hit. In fact, stationary ships seem more likely than moving ones to launch a spread of torpedoes. I've even seen light cruisers do this after getting smothered within minutes by 20+ large-caliber hits. It would definitely be nice to have a further reduction in such occurrences.
|
|
sage2
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by sage2 on Aug 12, 2015 23:21:22 GMT -6
I've played three full campaigns and have not seen this happen more than once or twice. I wonder if there's some luck of the draw here?
|
|
|
|
Post by Fredrik W on Aug 13, 2015 0:37:55 GMT -6
I'll continue to watch this, but maybe you've been unlucky. It did happen on occasion IRL. The sinking Wiesbaden also launched her torps, IIRC there is some speculation that it was the sinking Wiesbaden that torpedoed the Marlborough. |
|
|
|
Post by mrnkovac on Aug 13, 2015 2:11:33 GMT -6
I also receive such torpedo hits, but i always consider it to be my mistake.
If i simply get too close and dont change course of my ships, then i can blame only myself for receiving torpedo hit.
Take a lesson and be more cautious.
|
|
|
|
Post by alchenar on Aug 13, 2015 5:40:08 GMT -6
It has been my experience that late-game fleet engagements largely consist of destroyer swarms on each side flinging dozens of torpedoes at the enemy battle line the moment they come into visual contact.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fredrik W on Aug 13, 2015 10:50:42 GMT -6
It has been my experience that late-game fleet engagements largely consist of destroyer swarms on each side flinging dozens of torpedoes at the enemy battle line the moment they come into visual contact. By "Late game" you mean what year? I suspect that if the game is continued for long enough, eventually everyone will get long lances. The research tree really wasn't intended to run for much after 1925. |
|
|
|
Post by alchenar on Aug 13, 2015 12:44:14 GMT -6
It has been my experience that late-game fleet engagements largely consist of destroyer swarms on each side flinging dozens of torpedoes at the enemy battle line the moment they come into visual contact. By "Late game" you mean what year? I suspect that if the game is continued for long enough, eventually everyone will get long lances. The research tree really wasn't intended to run for much after 1925. 1914-1918. I think there are a few issues in parallel here but off the very top of my head: 1) The Long Lance started design in 1928. Setting aside the fact that it's technically outside the scope of the game, it represents a very niche weapon produced by Japan that far outstripped the range of any contemporary produced by anyone else. It would improve things and add more flavour to the factions if the top torpedo techs were made very unlikely to unlock for anyone but Japan. 2) So far as tech progression goes, torpedo effectiveness matches (and in early game probably outstrips) the progress of Gun effectiveness. To put it another way, after about 1905 the range at which Battleships engage each other is extremely close to the range at which destroyers start lobbing torpedoes, to the extent that it's extremely difficult to detect a torpedo attack from the natural movement of destroyers around a battle line. 3) The propensity for night-time/storm fleet engagements makes torpedoes extra lethal over the course of a game. These scenarios should really be generated as the exception rather than the norm. 4) If you are going to carry a torpedo with a 20-30km range then you should suffer the drawbacks associated with the pure oxygen fuel you are probably using, which is that they'll have a propensity to blow up if your ship gets hit. Perhaps the game should treat them as a separate weapon with a different type of torpedo mount. |
|
|
|
Post by Fredrik W on Aug 13, 2015 13:26:46 GMT -6
1 and 4. Good points about the oxygen fuelled torpedoes.
2. Might be so. If that is the general impression, I could tune back torp effectiveness or research slightly.
3. Night or bad weather engagements should be about 1/5 of battles in RTW. The real life sample isn't enormous, but quite a few WW1 engagements were fought in low visibility, Jutland (partly), Otranto (partly), Helgoland Bight, several Austrian destroyer raids on the barrage, Cape Sarych, Coronel, 1st and 2d Dover Straits, Östergarn... that is probably more than 1/5 of WW1 surface engagements listed already.
|
|
|
|
Post by alchenar on Aug 13, 2015 15:27:28 GMT -6
I'll lay my cards on the table here: night battles are messy and unfun. Fleets instantly turn into a chaotic sprawl of uncontrollable ships dropping like flies to torpedo hits. The outcome is incredibly random and there isn't much the player can do to influence it. I've got nothing against mid-day battles that run on into sunset, but if you load a battle and find it's been generated at night then the only sensible thing for any player to do is reverse course on all ships and run out the timer.
Regardless of historicity, night time engagements in the game are horrible and I'd like to avoid them as much as possible. I don't think you've done anything wrong with regards to them, it's just that engagements where command and control was literally impossible don't really work in a game that's all about command and control of your fleet.
|
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Aug 13, 2015 15:28:58 GMT -6
2) So far as tech progression goes, torpedo effectiveness matches (and in early game probably outstrips) the progress of Gun effectiveness. To put it another way, after about 1905 the range at which Battleships engage each other is extremely close to the range at which destroyers start lobbing torpedoes, to the extent that it's extremely difficult to detect a torpedo attack from the natural movement of destroyers around a battle line. My experience is quite different-before 1905 torpedoes are nearly useless as destroyer usually starts to evade enemy before she runs in torpedo range (I always research torpedoes at medium priority and often play nations with poor education-maybe here is difference?) Between 1905 and 1910 I usually see many launches but few hits. Only after nearly 1915 torpedoes become really deadly, though to this time first torpedo protection techs should be explored. But even in late 1910 my fleet battles continued for hours with only 2 or 3 torpedo hits neither of which was kill. However, torpedo progress between 1906-1915 looks very fast. But maybe it was the same IRL? Nighttime battles are often painful, I agree. Main problem for me is that ships start in sight range of each other but sometimes doesn't spot anybody, so after 2-3 minutes your fleet may find itself crossing enemy battleline (funny to see how they try to evade collision with unsighted enemies), or at second minute you may just got message "Torpedo hit! {shipname} sinking!" That's maybe realistic but not fun and I always cry "Why the hell your trained for nighttime engagements elite crew can't even SEE enemy!!!  " Fortunately sometimes such things happen with enemy too  but not often enough. My suggestion is to make distance larger and allow player at least change roles of divisions from the start, allowing to form screen, turn unsupported CA scouts to core etc. (more complex one is allowing player to change ship roles pre-battle - this stupid Admiralstab may give you weird taskforce under command and impossible order, but in the sea they shouldn't forbid you command your subordinates what they should do). And heavy weather battles are real fun: speed doesn't count, so you should sink or sunk, but gunnery is so uneffective... storm should also greatly reduce torpedoes reliability, but I hadn't much experience to check is it so in RTW or not. |
|
|
|
Post by alchenar on Aug 13, 2015 16:33:25 GMT -6
My experience is quite different-before 1905 torpedoes are nearly useless as destroyer usually starts to evade enemy before she runs in torpedo range (I always research torpedoes at medium priority and often play nations with poor education-maybe here is difference?) Between 1905 and 1910 I usually see many launches but few hits. Only after nearly 1915 torpedoes become really deadly, though to this time first torpedo protection techs should be explored. But even in late 1910 my fleet battles continued for hours with only 2 or 3 torpedo hits neither of which was kill. However, torpedo progress between 1906-1915 looks very fast. But maybe it was the same IRL? Sorry, to be clear that's what I meant to say - for the first five years of the game you have to try to get hit by a torpedo. Then from 1905 to 1910 you see a rapid increase in effectiveness as the first waves of techs start to apply, then from 1910 onwards torpedoes start to get really scary. My impression of tech progression is anecdotal and I've only done cursory research, but it feels like by 1915 everyone's running around with torpedoes that have characteristics that in reality only showed up in the 30's. |
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Aug 13, 2015 17:25:44 GMT -6
My experience is quite different-before 1905 torpedoes are nearly useless as destroyer usually starts to evade enemy before she runs in torpedo range (I always research torpedoes at medium priority and often play nations with poor education-maybe here is difference?) Between 1905 and 1910 I usually see many launches but few hits. Only after nearly 1915 torpedoes become really deadly, though to this time first torpedo protection techs should be explored. But even in late 1910 my fleet battles continued for hours with only 2 or 3 torpedo hits neither of which was kill. However, torpedo progress between 1906-1915 looks very fast. But maybe it was the same IRL? Sorry, to be clear that's what I meant to say - for the first five years of the game you have to try to get hit by a torpedo. Then from 1905 to 1910 you see a rapid increase in effectiveness as the first waves of techs start to apply, then from 1910 onwards torpedoes start to get really scary. My impression of tech progression is anecdotal and I've only done cursory research, but it feels like by 1915 everyone's running around with torpedoes that have characteristics that in reality only showed up in the 30's. Hmm, just checked my last 1925 year savegames, best torpedoes I ever had may run 12000 yards at speed of 27 knots. These characteristics were roughly achieved IRL during WWI (British 21" Mark IV - 13,500 yards (12,350 m) / 25 knots, in service since 1916; German 23,6" H8 - 15,310 yards (14,000 m) / 30 knots, in service since 1915). And best torpedo may be ever researched in game has range 18000 yards/27 knots, while Nelson-class IRL had 24,5" torpedoes with range 20,000 yards (18,300 m) / 30 knots (in service since 1925). So techs are real, no Long Lances spotted. What is missed in game, I think, is problem of rearmament, as now even oldest 500 ton boat or Victorian-era battleship got deadly long-ranged torps once you researched them, though it was not fast and not cheap process. But maybe it would be too complex to implement. And sorry, can't agree with you that night battles are unfun. Bloody short range mess where only ship under your real control is your flagship may be very interesting once you spot the enemy, and often there are some ways to control this chaos. They are now even safer than IRL - at least ships don't friendly-fire shells to each other by occasion. |
|
|
|
Post by genjeft on Aug 13, 2015 20:24:05 GMT -6
I'll lay my cards on the table here: night battles are messy and unfun. Fleets instantly turn into a chaotic sprawl of uncontrollable ships dropping like flies to torpedo hits. The outcome is incredibly random and there isn't much the player can do to influence it. I've got nothing against mid-day battles that run on into sunset, but if you load a battle and find it's been generated at night then the only sensible thing for any player to do is reverse course on all ships and run out the timer. Regardless of historicity, night time engagements in the game are horrible and I'd like to avoid them as much as possible. I don't think you've done anything wrong with regards to them, it's just that engagements where command and control was literally impossible don't really work in a game that's all about command and control of your fleet. I took advantage of a night engagement to isolate then sink a french BB using a couple of old Bs, a CA, and a few destroyers. If I had run into that thing in the day with that force I would have probably been toast. If you have a hard time controlling it just slow down the simulation speed. The bloody thing took so many hits I saved the Statisics. 63 heavy shells, 73 medium shells, 40 light shells, and 6 torpedo before it finally went down. I would not have been able to take it down if it were daylight. Attachments:
|
|
dang
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by dang on Aug 13, 2015 21:11:44 GMT -6
I think lotsa torpedo hits are a symptom of the AI trying to get so close all the time. Don't emulate the AI; why are you within 7,000 yards of a sinking ship anyway? By 1915 7,000 is dangerously close for guns and torpedoes alike.
|
|
|
|
Post by alchenar on Aug 14, 2015 5:38:12 GMT -6
Yeah the consensus on another forum where I asked is 'the main thing is the AI's obsession with constantly getting closer'
|
|
" Fortunately sometimes such things happen with enemy too 
but not often enough. My suggestion is to make distance larger and allow player at least change roles of divisions from the start, allowing to form screen, turn unsupported CA scouts to core etc. (more complex one is allowing player to change ship roles pre-battle - this stupid Admiralstab may give you weird taskforce under command and impossible order, but in the sea they shouldn't forbid you command your subordinates what they should do). And heavy weather battles are real fun: speed doesn't count, so you should sink or sunk, but gunnery is so uneffective... storm should also greatly reduce torpedoes reliability, but I hadn't much experience to check is it so in RTW or not. 