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Post by trenton59 on Sept 7, 2015 10:41:24 GMT -6
Don't Minesweepers reduce the chance your ships hit a mine or am I imagining that? Thought I read that. That was mentioned by the Developers at least once, though I forget where.
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krawa
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by krawa on Sept 7, 2015 11:50:34 GMT -6
I'm not sure but I thought this is related to ships on ASW patrol which not necessarily have to be minesweepers.
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Post by tmp on Sept 7, 2015 12:09:15 GMT -6
Seriously man... I wouldn't mind seeing an 'unprotected cruiser' or 'unclassified miscellaneous' type added to the game which would fill the position of the 'station ship' you are suggesting... but it isn't there, and building it means that I have a one trick pony eating up fleet-scale tonnage. No, it doesn't mean you have a "one trick pony". As i already mentioned these ships can perform two roles, so I don't really get your insistence on pretending that's not the case. The possibility of having a different ship perform one of these roles instead doesn't take from them their ability to do both without the need to build that other ship type, just like having proper raiders and colonial service ships doesn't prevent your mini cruisers from sort-of doing both of these things.
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Post by thecarthaginian on Sept 7, 2015 14:48:46 GMT -6
No, it doesn't mean you have a "one trick pony". As i already mentioned these ships can perform two roles, so I don't really get your insistence on pretending that's not the case. The possibility of having a different ship perform one of these roles instead doesn't take from them their ability to do both without the need to build that other ship type, just like having proper raiders and colonial service ships doesn't prevent your mini cruisers from sort-of doing both of these things. What two roles can your uber-Minesweeper perform? 1.) be in the active fleet for 'on station' tonnage in peace or wartime. 2.)It can be a coastal patrol ship during wartime; that is ALL it can do during a war.A Cruiser of any kind can: 1.) be in the active fleet for 'on station' tonnage in peace or wartime. 2.) act as a raider during wartime. 3.) act as a fleet scout/screen during wartime. 4.) can be a coastal patrol ship during wartime. Any ship can be a station ship. My cruisers don't 'rot away' when they are deliberately left in an obsolete state to fill the station while not at war, either. That makes them FAR cheaper (for me) in the long run than eating up new production making large minesweepers. EDIT - during the current game, for the low price of two 2500t, 24 knot mini-cruisers , I was able to torpedo a 13,500t Russian B in one battle. That is almost a threefold return on my investment. That was after one of those ships sank more than 30 merchant ships as a raider. The other sank only about 20 in the same timeframe (1 year). What is the average return on your minesweepers?
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Post by tmp on Sept 7, 2015 17:49:22 GMT -6
What two roles can your uber-Minesweeper perform? 1.) be in the active fleet for 'on station' tonnage in peace or wartime. 2.)It can be a coastal patrol ship during wartime; that is ALL it can do during a war.As you count yourself, that makes for two roles, not one. One for peace, one for war. A regular, tiny minesweeper instead is indeed a "one trick pony", as it doesn't have enough impact to effectively fill role #1 For the price of one of these cruisers you can have ~3-3.5 minesweepers, more if they're made basic (with no solid weaponry or armour) Which will cover ~35+ years of service, even with the wear and tear. As the game lasts for 25 years normally it means no, in the long run your cruisers aren't really cheaper. They might break even in something like an extended, 40-50 year long game (if you are willing to overlook maintenance cost difference) but in such game if you leave them unattended they'll quickly become just an outdated, easy bag of points for the enemy, as they won't outrun any enemy cruisers after the first decade or so, thus losing any edge they might had in the first place. They will also suffer "outdated machinery breakdowns", costing you extra maintenance. Isn't a single merchant kill worth something like 5VP? That'd mean your mini-cruisers generated you 100-150 VP each over that entire year. Not exactly earth shattering gain when you consider a major victory can be worth at least a few thousands VP, and you get close to 200 in a month just blockading the enemy. Did your two mini-cruisers sink that battleship without any help, or were they casualties in a larger battle in which someone else did the killing? I recall you writing your cruisers weren't given torpedo tubes, but perhaps those were some bigger and better armed models. (mind you, trying to calculate "returns" this way leaves one with conclusion that nothing is more effective than Jeune Ecole, because nothing will match throwing dozens of dirt cheap destroyers at the enemy and scoring occasional BC or BB hits with them, no matter how many DDs you lose... so why even bother with any other ship classes. In other words, it's a bit absurd) My minesweepers enabled my fleet to use its destroyers and cruisers to full capacity in battles, allowing me to sink quite a few more ships overall than a single small battleship, and to achieve multiple major victories this way. In the combat missions they were free bonus enemy spotters, not taking force slots from ships which could perform much better than them in battle. And since they were sturdy and fast when needed I didn't lose a single one of them during the combat missions in entire game, meaning they didn't negatively affect the final score with their deaths; as opposed to the smaller, slower minesweepers built by enemy AI.
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Post by thecarthaginian on Sept 7, 2015 20:40:08 GMT -6
OK, the cruiser design was indeed updated to feature torpedoes this game. 2500 tons 23 knots (exceeded speed/24 knots) 5 x 1 x 5" (2 bow, 2 midships, 1 aft; shielded) 8 x 1 x 4" (4/broadside; unshielded) 2 x 1 TT (1 port, 1 starboard; submerged) While it was a larger battle, they sank the B alone... and another like them assisted in the sinking of another. They also gained 100-150 VP from their raiding. This was also not the only 12 month period in which they were active. They also did roughly the same amount of damage in another war prior to this one - a war that was won entirely by raiding the enemy into starvation. The remaining ships of the class (3 of 5) are still on foreign station, and since Japan is lagging behind technologically, can still be used there with reasonable effectiveness during another war should it arise quickly. If not, they can be kept on station and even used as *gasp* coastal patrol for any length of time because unlike the minesweeper they will never disappear. The REAL comparison is to as how many VP did your overgrown MS make for you?. In the end, the cruisers can make both a direct AND indirect contribution to your forces. The Minesweepers are only an indirect contribution. They only have one trick.
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Post by cwemyss on Sept 8, 2015 8:38:05 GMT -6
I really HATE to breathe any life into this thread, it's gotten unpleasant. But I'm a little confused about one thing and it could affect my games: What do you mean about an MS disappearing? In my current game I've got a half-dozen "Colonial MS", ~1600 tons, minimal gun/armor. Every 10 years I bring them home to do a zero-change rebuild, the "(O)" goes away, and they soldier on with the same very low maintenance cost.
"Open Design For Rebuild" Change nothing Hit save.
The rebuild usually takes 4 months and actually costs less per month than the operating cost of having the ship in the active fleet overseas. I'm an airplane guy, so I look at it as a depot/heavy maintenance period, with a full engine overhaul.
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Post by thecarthaginian on Sept 8, 2015 9:01:25 GMT -6
I really HATE to breathe any life into this thread, it's gotten unpleasant. But I'm a little confused about one thing and it could affect my games: What do you mean about an MS disappearing? In my current game I've got a half-dozen "Colonial MS", ~1600 tons, minimal gun/armor. Every 10 years I bring them home to do a zero-change rebuild, the "(O)" goes away, and they soldier on with the same very low maintenance cost. "Open Design For Rebuild" Change nothing Hit save. The rebuild usually takes 4 months and actually costs less per month than the operating cost of having the ship in the active fleet overseas. I'm an airplane guy, so I look at it as a depot/heavy maintenance period, with a full engine overhaul. How you look at it is exactly what it is! You're in the yard getting the boilers flushed, having the bottom scraped, patched and painted, etc. While you're doing that, though, my ships are quite happy to keep going till they are fit to scrap with that (O) not bothering me a bit... as they really don't necessarily have to have that refit. Yes, there are penalties associated with not doing so - but after any ship has reached a certain age, changing anything becomes a moot point. The point is those ships MUST be refitted or you lose them. I could do much the same thing with these if I determine it is worthwhile. Would it be a bit more expensive? Sure. But I'm getting a more capable ship out of such a refit as well. I simply don't have to 'tie up the yards,' so to speak, to keep using them in a "coastal patrol/station ship" role; having an obsolete ship do this is just as effective as a shiny new one.
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Post by namuras on Sept 8, 2015 9:03:29 GMT -6
I always use CL / CA and in late game outdated BC's for colonial duty. The MS fleet i keep in homewaters to go on ASW duty once a war starts, because afaik they reduce the risk of my combat ships running into a mine. I got really tired of either outright losing ships to mines or have my BB / BC undergo a 4 month dock time. Also having cheap MS allowes my DD and CL to do proper warship stuff.
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