Do other nations have foreign station requirements?

[thecarthaginian]

It has occurred to me that perhaps why the other nations my games are producing such massive BB's at the expense of the other types of ships in their fleets is that they are not being required to keep ships on their colonial stations as they should. Often a mid/late-game 'medium' fleet will have NO light or heavy cruisers, a dozen or less DD's... but a few massive dreadnought BBs and BC's.

Are the foreign station requirements of AI nations being taken into account?

[ccip]

It does seem that way, because at any point in the game the nations with large empires tend to have a lot of cruisers and small fleets spread around the world. Sometimes almost too much so.

[tmp]

In my (limited) experience mid- and late game, unless they suffered some catastrophic losses in war with the player, the AI nations maintain anything between 5-20 CLs and station them around the world, so it'd at least seem they follow their own foreign station requirements. They largely abandon CAs in favour of BCs, but that's another story.

[swang]

Create unarmored/slow/undergunned Colonial MSs of 1600 tons. They're the most efficient way. When you're in a war, "escort" them with a CA/CL on AF, the MSs will never get into combat.

[thecarthaginian]

Sept 4, 2015 17:41:44 GMT -6 swang said:

Create unarmored/slow/undergunned Colonial MSs of 1600 tons. They're the most efficient way. When you're in a war, "escort" them with a CA/CL on AF, the MSs will never get into combat.

A MS of >200 tons has no real, practical use.
They are simply a hull that soak up cash without a real return.

I designed a 'minimum cruiser' of 2100 tons that can actually preform most duties I need on colonial stations, while doubling as a raider during wartime. It sacrifices torpedo armament for a reasonable amount of speed, so it can evade if it is intercepted in this role.

[swang]

Take a look at your upkeep and build costs. the 1600 ton MS with the Colonial modifier is by far the most efficient Foreign Station ship, freeing much more of your budget for "real" ships. Your minimal cruisers are essentially combat ineffective anyways. Also, you should rarely (if ever) put your foreign station ships on either raid or convoy escort, as they no longer count towards the foreign station requirements. It's more optimal to design and send a dedicated raider or a dedicated escort.

[thecarthaginian]

I dont just use the 'foreign station' option. I manually detail 'active fleet' units to an area. It is more micromsnagement... but it allows me to distribute them like I want them.

[swang]

a 1600 ton MS with no armor, 1 3in gun, and 10 knots costs 1.8 million, and a maintenance cost of 10k

a Minimal cruiser of 2100 tons costs 3.7 million, and a maintenance of 19k. This is because a cruiser must have a gun, and must be 17 knots or faster and must have some armor, which are all wastes of space/Maintenance

Your minimal cruiser is just as combat ineffective as the 1600 ton MS. if it fights, it dies. there's no point in having the extra cost and the extra maintenance at all. I start out 1900 with 48 MS. With the money and maintenance saved, I can get one fore Battle ship or 3 more CL.

[gornik]

I prefer minimal raiders for colonies (first series even without colonial service fitting as they need every ton of weight to be reliable). They are gunboats for peacetime and raider (BTW, very effective in this role) for war. I use such design:

Machinery is reliable, operational radius is long.

Such ship is not the cheapest (7 mln to build, 58 000 to maintain), but she worth money, sinking merchants every month. Also such ships are element of economic warfare: To counter every Novara enemy should use 2-3 "real" cruisers (every one cost three times more), and even this don't guarantee success. (also they help to fulfil request of event "build X CL") MS are ships for peace only, also their problem is that they disappear with time (some years after they become obsolete).

[thecarthaginian]

Sept 6, 2015 14:26:46 GMT -6 gornik said:

I prefer minimal raiders for colonies (first series even without colonial service fitting as they need every ton of weight to be reliable). They are gunboats for peacetime and raider (BTW, very effective in this role) for war. I use such design:
View Attachment
Machinery is reliable, operational radius is long.

Such ship is not the cheapest (7 mln to build, 58 000 to maintain), but she worth money, sinking merchants every month. Also such ships are element of economic warfare: To counter every Novara enemy should use 2-3 "real" cruisers (every one cost three times more), and even this don't guarantee success. (also they help to fulfil request of event "build X CL") MS are ships for peace only, also their problem is that they disappear with time (some years after they become obsolete).

Exactly.
The MS is a single-use, inflexible design. It can do npthing except exist.
A minimum raider croiser can preform a variety of duties, does not 'rot away' with time, and can possibly effect the outcome of combat.

Thus, the more expensive cruiser actually 'saves money.'

[tmp]

Sept 6, 2015 14:26:46 GMT -6 gornik said:

MS are ships for peace only.

Quite the opposite in my experience -- they are just as useful and pretty essential in war time, as they can fill the ASW/Coastal patrol role (which needs considerable ship numbers) freeing the real ship to do their intended combat duties. This may mean they take a break from foreign stations during that time, but your regular fleet should take that over as it'll be putting pressure on the enemy anyway (unless you are blockaded, but if this happens you are not required to fill the foreign stations)

[thecarthaginian]

Sept 6, 2015 20:13:24 GMT -6 tmp said:

Sept 6, 2015 14:26:46 GMT -6 gornik said:

MS are ships for peace only.

Quite the opposite in my experience -- they are just as useful and pretty essential in war time, as they can fill the ASW/Coastal patrol role (which needs considerable ship numbers) freeing the real ship to do their intended combat duties

All of which can be (and was historically) performed by ships with much smaller displacements for far less maintenance. If a 200t trawler can do the job as well as a 1600t unprotected cruiser (and the unprotected cruiser can do nothing else)... why not?

[tmp]

Sept 6, 2015 20:27:07 GMT -6 thecarthaginian said:

All of which can be (and was historically) performed by ships with much smaller displacements for far less maintenance. If a 200t trawler can do the job as well as a 1600t unprotected cruiser (and the unprotected cruiser can do nothing else)... why not?

The maintenance for 1.5k tons MS with CL-like armour and armament of a heavy destroyer is ~20k, and a ship like this will give AI destroyer coastal raids quite a pause. (heck, even 500t MS with a handful of half-decent guns and good engines can not only survive but even hurt these destroyers until the cavalry arrives, I had this happen) Yes, a 200t boat will cost you less, but I think that little extra is quite ok for a dual-purpose ship, especially compared to nearly 60k for the alternative advocated upthread.

Anyway I was mainly objecting to the statement such ships have no use in war time. Yes, you could use something else to fulfill the patrol role instead, but at the expense of these patrol ships having no use during the peace time. Which doesn't make it a very appealing alternative, overall.

(historically these ships could be anywhere between 300-1000 tons during WW1 btw, depending on their origins)

[thecarthaginian]

Sept 6, 2015 21:25:55 GMT -6 tmp said:

Anyway I was mainly objecting to the statement such ships have no use in war time. Yes, you could use something else to fulfill the patrol role instead, but at the expense of these patrol ships having no use during the peace time. Which doesn't make it a very appealing alternative, overall.

(historically these ships could be anywhere between 300-1000 tons during WW1 btw, depending on their origins)

Historically, those patrol ships really DIDN'T have any other role in peacetime... unless they were 1.) requisitioned merchants, which returned to merchant service at war's end or 2.) ships of a type which could be converted into merchant vessels, in which case they were sold off as surplus.
Otherwise they were generally 1.) scrapped, 2.) sold to lesser fleets or 3.) allowed to rust away until the inevitable occurred.

Seriously man... I wouldn't mind seeing an 'unprotected cruiser' or 'unclassified miscellaneous' type added to the game which would fill the position of the 'station ship' you are suggesting... but it isn't there, and building it means that I have a one trick pony eating up fleet-scale tonnage.
Oh, and he's got a 10 year lifespan that is not cost-effective to extend.

[cleveland]

Don't Minesweepers reduce the chance your ships hit a mine or am I imagining that? Thought I read that.