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Post by yousyokumarimo on Oct 15, 2020 9:27:30 GMT -6
Jabo appear in late game. I don't know Jabo effectiveness. Is Jabo useful more than DB?
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Post by aeson on Oct 15, 2020 9:59:51 GMT -6
What do you mean by 'Jabo?' Fighter-bombers? Fighter-bombers can be reasonably good strike aircraft but are not quite as accurate as dive bombers, especially against smaller targets, and fighters carrying bombs are at an initial disadvantage in air-to-air combat and will jetison their bombs if engaged, so they're not quite the ideal self-escorting strike force.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 15, 2020 10:14:26 GMT -6
What do you mean by 'Jabo?' Fighter-bombers? Fighter-bombers can be reasonably good strike aircraft but are not quite as accurate as dive bombers, especially against smaller targets, and fighters carrying bombs are at an initial disadvantage in air-to-air combat and will jetison their bombs if engaged, so they're not quite the ideal self-escorting strike force. I am certain that everyone is aware that the term "jabo" is a German term for fighter's carrying bombs conducting armed reconnaissance, interdiction and close support missions. The German's actually said "Actung, Jabos" in the ground forces to indicate that Allied fighters were in the area.
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Post by aeson on Oct 15, 2020 10:21:46 GMT -6
I am certain that everyone is aware that the term "jabo" is a German term for fighter's carrying bombs conducting armed reconnaissance, interdiction and close support missions. Seeing as I neither know German nor can recall seeing "jabo" appear in any of the histories of the Second World War which I have read, no, I would not be certain that "everyone" is aware that "jabo" is a German term for fighter-bombers conducting armed reconnaissance missions.
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Post by hawkeye on Oct 15, 2020 10:55:03 GMT -6
To expand on the word:
A "fighter" is called Jäger (hunter) or Jagdflugzeug (Hunting Plane) in German
So putting a bomb on a fighter is using a Jagd(flugzeug) to bomb stuff, therefore a Jagdbomber or, Jabo for short.
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Post by nimrod on Oct 15, 2020 11:48:21 GMT -6
Jabo appear in late game. I don't know Jabo effectiveness. Is Jabo useful more than DB? I can't give specifics on effectiveness - I will say that a jack of all trades is king of none, and refer you to what Aeson wrote. Useful really varies on your needs - what country you are playing as. I tend to use a lot of fighter-bombers late game as they can do - CAP, Escort and Bombing missions. Early to mid game fighter bombers with up-to 350lbs bomb loads tend to not do much bombing in my play-throughs. The FB approach works for me with Italy, Germany and Russia, which are in enclosed seas and often are fighting off an enemies coast and have fairly limited budgets. I can provide what ever type of air support I need for a pretty good bang for my dollar. Additionally, Germany has a pretty good advantage with this style of play - the torpedobomb tech, which I believe converts some near bomb misses into submerged torp hits - same idea as diving shells. DB's I believe are kings of accurate air attacks and use SAP or AP bombs; but they are a specialized one trick pony. As Germany, Italy, Russia by the early to mid 1940's I tend to fill about 60-80% of my carrier capacity with fighter-bombers (varies on country, CV and CVL capabilities and where I'm fighting) and the rest with DB with maybe a smattering of TB. Land-based usage really varies on what territories I have and what I'm up-against. I would imagine that USA or England can and should go with more specialized setups do the nature of fighting in the Pacific and large budgets. P.S. I don't know if it is just me, but I think FB survive better attacking land based targets like airfields. I'm not sure if it is their speed advantage or if they are dumping bombs and fighting as fighters, but they seem to do just as good a job as the DBs and I seem to be able to launch more attacks with more AC at the end of a long days battle.
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Post by nimrod on Oct 15, 2020 11:54:44 GMT -6
Sorry for the double post - still learning the system.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 15, 2020 13:59:43 GMT -6
I can't speak to the fighter bomber effectiveness of the game but I will say that dive bombers are very vulnerable weapons and generally you need to have air superiority at the least to use them. The German's found this out during the Battle of Britain. The Allies, both the British and the US, did not adopt dive bombers but used fighter-bombers like the Hawker Hurricane, P-40, etc. These aircraft could drop their ordnance and turn toward the enemy and defend themselves better. While their accuracy was not as good, it was adequate to perform the missions. Fighter-bombers were very effective and accurate with machine guns and cannon's. 20 mm and 40 mm cannons could do a lot of damage to trucks, lightly armed cars, trains and ships. Even tanks could be disabled using the cannons. The engine cowling on tanks is not normally armored so cannon fire can put the engine out of commission. The top of the turret is lightly armored and so are the tracks. Again, I don't know if the game simulates this.
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Post by aeson on Oct 15, 2020 14:12:48 GMT -6
I can't speak to the fighter bomber effectiveness of the game but I will say that dive bombers are very vulnerable weapons and generally you need to have air superiority at the least to use them. The German's found this out during the Battle of Britain. The Allies, both the British and the US, did not adopt dive bombers but used fighter-bombers like the Hawker Hurricane, P-40, etc. These aircraft could drop their ordnance and turn toward the enemy and defend themselves better. While their accuracy was not as good, it was adequate to perform the missions. Fighter-bombers were very effective and accurate with machine guns and cannon's. 20 mm and 40 mm cannons could do a lot of damage to trucks, lightly armed cars, trains and ships. Sorry, I can't hear you over the noise of that cloud of angry SBD Dauntlesses, SB2C Helldivers, AM Maulers, AD Skyraiders, Blackburn Skuas, Fairey Swordfish, et cetera circling overhead. Would you care to repeat that? Something about "British and American dive bombers don't exist?"
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Post by mycophobia on Oct 15, 2020 14:15:20 GMT -6
I can't speak to the fighter bomber effectiveness of the game but I will say that dive bombers are very vulnerable weapons and generally you need to have air superiority at the least to use them. The German's found this out during the Battle of Britain. The Allies, both the British and the US, did not adopt dive bombers but used fighter-bombers like the Hawker Hurricane, P-40, etc. These aircraft could drop their ordnance and turn toward the enemy and defend themselves better. While their accuracy was not as good, it was adequate to perform the missions. Fighter-bombers were very effective and accurate with machine guns and cannon's. 20 mm and 40 mm cannons could do a lot of damage to trucks, lightly armed cars, trains and ships. Sorry, I can't hear you over the noise of that cloud of angry SBD Dauntlesses, SB2C Helldivers, AM Maulers, AD Skyraiders, Blackburn Skuas, Fairey Swordfish, et cetera circling overhead. Would you care to repeat that? Something about "British and American dive bombers don't exist?" It sound like oldpop is talking about mostly ground attack role, in which case fighter bomber does get used much much more often than dedicated dive bombers. So I feel like that have more to do with availability as those same fighters like mustang are used for Air Superiority role as well
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 15, 2020 14:28:10 GMT -6
Sorry, I can't hear you over the noise of that cloud of angry SBD Dauntlesses, SB2C Helldivers, AM Maulers, AD Skyraiders, Blackburn Skuas, Fairey Swordfish, et cetera circling overhead. Would you care to repeat that? Something about "British and American dive bombers don't exist?" It sound like oldpop is talking about mostly ground attack role, in which case fighter bomber does get used much much more often than dedicated dive bombers. So I feel like that have more to do with availability as those same fighters like mustang are used for Air Superiority role as well Yes I am referring to land based air attacks. Naval dive bombers are a whole other story and they were vulnerable without escorts. F6F Hellcats and F4U Corsairs were both used as fighter-bombers against land and naval targets. The fighters were divided equally and the fighter-bombers were designated VBF. Both the F6F and the F4U performed the missions. wings-aviation.ch/25-Navy-Sqn/VBF-Squadrons/VBF-Overview.htm
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Post by aeson on Oct 15, 2020 14:51:44 GMT -6
It sound like oldpop is talking about mostly ground attack role, in which case fighter bomber does get used much much more often than dedicated dive bombers. So I feel like that have more to do with availability as those same fighters like mustang are used for Air Superiority role as well Yes I am referring to land based air attacks. Naval dive bombers are a whole other story and they were vulnerable without escorts. F6F Hellcats and F4U Corsairs were both used as fighter-bombers against land and naval targets. The fighters were divided equally and the fighter-bombers were designated VBF. Both the F6F and the F4U performed the missions. wings-aviation.ch/25-Navy-Sqn/VBF-Squadrons/VBF-Overview.htmA-26 says 'hello.' Sure, it's a variant of the P-51, but it's a dive bomber variant of the P-51 which saw service in North Africa.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 15, 2020 14:56:46 GMT -6
Yes I am referring to land based air attacks. Naval dive bombers are a whole other story and they were vulnerable without escorts. F6F Hellcats and F4U Corsairs were both used as fighter-bombers against land and naval targets. The fighters were divided equally and the fighter-bombers were designated VBF. Both the F6F and the F4U performed the missions. wings-aviation.ch/25-Navy-Sqn/VBF-Squadrons/VBF-Overview.htmA-26 says 'hello.' Sure, it's a variant of the P-51, but it's a dive bomber variant of the P-51 which saw service in North Africa. I think you are referring to the A-36 Apache. Only 500 were built. www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/variants/a36The A-26 Invader was a twin engine light bomber. It was used in Vietnam and Korea. It was the only US bomber used in three wars.
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Post by yousyokumarimo on Oct 15, 2020 23:51:39 GMT -6
I thinh that Dive bomber's payload increase 2000lb. 1000lb is too light in later game.
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Post by mycophobia on Oct 16, 2020 10:19:28 GMT -6
I thinh that Dive bomber's payload increase 2000lb. 1000lb is too light in later game. I believe Dive bomber can already have up to 2000lb(I remember seeing up to 1600lb), but it is not very common and need some luck to get developed.
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