ck07
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by ck07 on Nov 5, 2022 5:39:45 GMT -6
I never use CLs for colonial work. 800 t KEs--if slow and practically unarmed--are much more efficient and nicely quantized @ 1,000 t colonial. In wartime they provide immense ASW. Later I upgrade their ASW further.
As UK in 1912 (medium size fleets) I have 130, of which 127 are in use. Have not detected any downside.
In case you are wondering, the 500 t DDs eventually become MLs, MSs, or both.
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Post by asdfzxc922 on Nov 11, 2022 22:42:38 GMT -6
I never use CLs for colonial work. 800 t KEs--if slow and practically unarmed--are much more efficient and nicely quantized @ 1,000 t colonial. In wartime they provide immense ASW. Later I upgrade their ASW further. As UK in 1912 (medium size fleets) I have 130, of which 127 are in use. Have not detected any downside. In case you are wondering, the 500 t DDs eventually become MLs, MSs, or both. The downside is that you could have instead bought 75 destroyers, 10-15 CLs or 2-3 battleships with that money, and all those corvettes can't actually defend your colonies in wartime (AFAIK you can't even accept invasion battles without a cruiser or carrier). |
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Post by wlbjork on Nov 12, 2022 0:34:28 GMT -6
On the other hand though, all those KEs have a maintenance cost of around 1300 - which actually frees up more budget for the main combat fleet.
Have to say these days, when playing as UK, most regions get a couple of minesweepers and a trio of DDs, then if I need more tonnage in a region I also deploy CLs with the Colonial Upgrade. The Med usually gets a couple of Bs simply because of it's size.
Mind you, 130 KEs will absolutely slaughter subs in the TP role...
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Post by cormallen on Nov 12, 2022 10:38:09 GMT -6
When I'm playing my big (Fleet size 12) RN games I generally role play my colonial forces to near historical levels. Rather than meeting the minimum needs the game suggests I lean towards the IRL levels... Around 500,000 tons IIRC, as places like the Mediterranean hosted full size British battle fleets until the Anglo-French "Entente Cordialle". I find "Coasters with 6 pounders" a touch too gamey personally and have dozens of colonial cruisers (from 2500 ton lights up to full bore Armoured Cruisers of 10,000 tons of more) backing up a mixed bag of Victorian Gunboats etc. Of course, my RN games run rather rich as I start with closer to the real historical budgets. (Start budgets GB: 36000, GE: 15000, FR+US: 12000, RU: 10000, IT+JP:6000 from a recent run... Plus my own "Quasi-Historical" start fleets which are extra large plus). Once mines become a major menace I generally build several dozen 300 ton "Admiralty Trawlers" at the start of any major war and once submarines take off then it's "Flower class" a-go-go! Of course by then the old Victorian Gunboats have rusted away or sunk under the weight of multiple re-painting!
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Post by bobert on Nov 12, 2022 12:46:44 GMT -6
On the other hand though, all those KEs have a maintenance cost of around 1300 - which actually frees up more budget for the main combat fleet. Have to say these days, when playing as UK, most regions get a couple of minesweepers and a trio of DDs, then if I need more tonnage in a region I also deploy CLs with the Colonial Upgrade. The Med usually gets a couple of Bs simply because of it's size. Mind you, 130 KEs will absolutely slaughter subs in the TP role... |
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Post by bobert on Nov 12, 2022 12:50:52 GMT -6
Oops my first quote. Good to know building that many KE's is worth it. Is it good practice to spread your KE's to all the different areas? I can handle the merchant losses, but losing warships to subs really bums me out.
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Post by cormallen on Nov 12, 2022 14:02:18 GMT -6
Another comment: My impression from looking at the stats of RL turn-of-the-century protected cruisers is that the type was just as underwhelming IRL as in game. One thing to bear in mind is that length has a bearing on the speed that a ship can efficiently achieve, and so a larger cruiser has an easier time reaching high speeds then a smaller one. The primary advantage of CLs in the early game period is being able to deploy more of them due to cheapness. This is very true! The French, British and American navies (especially) all had a LOT of 17-19 knot protected cruisers of 2000-6000tons for trade and colonial protection duties that are fairly poor IG for actual combat with anything more battle-worthy or modern. Before turbines it's hard to get cruisers much over 23 knots without making major compromises in the fighting attributes so they can have a torrid time in hard fleet actions. I often find I have to drag them back from their initial scouting roles sooner than I might prefer into safer support positions... Also this, from Director, is spot on and explains much of the effectiveness seen from AI torpedo use: "The AI 'torpedo aimbot' does not exist. What does exist and is often overlooked is the AI insistence on positioning. Specifically it will do absolutely anything to keep your forces abaft its beam (IE if your force is in the east sailing north the AI will do anything to be north of your ships). This 'ahead' position allows it to better fire torpedoes since the torpedo speed is ADDED to your forward speed; this gives a high closing speed and effectively shortens the range and your change of position. If you fire torpedoes in return their speed is REDUCED by the enemy's forward speed and they may be closing on his position at only 10-15 knots or so. If the enemy isn't running he is turning to get ahead of you... and firing torpedoes. Always. Invariably. Without exception. Constantly. NEVER FORGET THIS." My counter to this is to keep a close eye on torp ranges and be ready to turn away or even reverse course. Using a "fast division" (early game generally 3-4 big CAs) to head off the enemy line and push them away sometimes works? |
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Post by wlbjork on Nov 12, 2022 17:33:35 GMT -6
Oops my first quote. Good to know building that many KE's is worth it. Is it good practice to spread your KE's to all the different areas? I can handle the merchant losses, but losing warships to subs really bums me out. Minesweepers absolutely need to be deployed to different areas as they only affect the areas they are deployed in. Coastal batteries and - once the technology is developed - AMCs, CLs and DDs are all capable of deploying mines offensively. My currently ongoing game as AH has seen several wars against Italy and France and my Minesweepers have reported clearing multiple minefields Not so sure about ASW units, but I like to spread them out for historical purposes. |
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Post by beastro on Nov 14, 2022 0:36:08 GMT -6
There are more problems. For example the constantly broken AI torpedo aimbot, which has the advantage in every way and every time, no matter what you do, yet some poeple keeps on denying its existence, thinking that this will solve the problem... I'm 99% sure "torpedo aimbot" is just people's bad tactics. If you micromanage your force you have to do it right. Like I guarantee if you're on Admiral mode this won't happen. I've modded and tested this game, as well as SAI, for well over a year and any bugs or inconsistencies are quite easily reproduceable if you know how, and somewhat quickly fixed by the devs The only issue around this is the "pin cushion" problem with torpedo armed ships that never seems to apply to your own.
You have a destroyer knocked out and dead in the water then it's going to be doing very little and launching torpedoes is not one of them. However, God forbid you get anywhere near a knocked out enemy DD even after it's been pummeled by dozens of medium caliber hits, it'll still have a good chance to shoving a torp into a ship passing by. |
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Post by laplace420 on Nov 17, 2022 2:21:04 GMT -6
I usually design 3 different types of CLs:
1. General Purpose "Fleet" CLs: These CLs are primarily designed to fight other CLs in squadron vs. squadron engagements and also serve as scouts and anti-destroyer ships in fleet actions. I usually designs these to be 5-6000 tons early game, progressing to 9-10000 tons late game. You want to strike a balance between armament, armor, protection, and cost with these.
2. Cruiser-Killer CLs: These CLs are primarily designed to outfight other CLs in 1 vs. 1 engagements and to hose down larger ships at close range with rapid-fire 6" guns and have torpedoes for an added punch. I usually design these to be ~7000 tons early game, progressing to 12000 tons late game. It is important that these ships have TPS 1 and at least 3" of belt armor.
3. Cheap CLs: You need large numbers of CLs for trade protection raiding and also to just have more ships larger than a destroyer available. To design these, I simply reduce the armament and size of my "fleet" CL designs. The primary purpose of these CLs is to outfight enemy destroyers, provide more AA protection than destroyers late-game, and at least provide a deterrent against enemy CLs.
All my CLs carry at least some torpedoes. I've found that CLAAs aren't very effective as they are easily destroyed in surface engagements.
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Post by cormallen on Nov 17, 2022 7:40:11 GMT -6
I usually design 3 different types of CLs: 1. General Purpose "Fleet" CLs: These CLs are primarily designed to fight other CLs in squadron vs. squadron engagements and also serve as scouts and anti-destroyer ships in fleet actions. I usually designs these to be 5-6000 tons early game, progressing to 9-10000 tons late game. You want to strike a balance between armament, armor, protection, and cost with these. 2. Cruiser-Killer CLs: These CLs are primarily designed to outfight other CLs in 1 vs. 1 engagements and to hose down larger ships at close range with rapid-fire 6" guns and have torpedoes for an added punch. I usually design these to be ~7000 tons early game, progressing to 12000 tons late game. It is important that these ships have TPS 1 and at least 3" of belt armor. 3. Cheap CLs: You need large numbers of CLs for trade protection raiding and also to just have more ships larger than a destroyer available. To design these, I simply reduce the armament and size of my "fleet" CL designs. The primary purpose of these CLs is to outfight enemy destroyers, provide more AA protection than destroyers late-game, and at least provide a deterrent against enemy CLs. All my CLs carry at least some torpedoes. I've found that CLAAs aren't very effective as they are easily destroyed in surface engagements. I wish the player could pre-designate combat roles with more finesse. I too like to build a variety of cruisers but the Battle Generator likes its match ups so will drag innocent little old CLAA conversions into duels with big modern enemies. Colonial types can sort of hide by going into "Trade Protection" role as that seems to keep them out of heavy actions a bit (still get Convoy work obvs but that's fair enough). My "Quasi-Historical" RN games generally feature quite a few designs mimicking pre-WW1 style "Scout Cruisers" which should stay with the fleet (as they are too small and weak for much else by 1905-ish) and they are OK at that (lots of smaller guns are fairly good at shooting up enemy DD flots). Bear in mind that a lot of historical "Light Cruisers" are called "Heavy Cruisers" by the game, which is fair enough as the historical CA/CL definitions largely stem from the various naval treaties. |
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Post by arminpfano on Nov 23, 2022 12:58:04 GMT -6
If you avoid building CLs at all (or deploy them to colony service only) the battle generator uses your CAs or BCs instead, is my impression. I never find myself with a single CL against an overwhelming enemy fleet, as it is described frequently. Rather it runs vice versa ;-)
Also in RTW2 (in contrast to RL) you don´t need CLs to smoke enemy fleets. The patterns used by the battle generator are limited, so after some gaming experience one should have a quite good picture what to expect. On top of that I found DD flotillas as useful for scouting as CLs - or even more so, as they are faster and more agile.
As to the AI torpedo aiming: director has said it all. One should know pretty well when to expect a torpedo during battle. My preferred solution: as many forward guns as possible, and then head directly for the enemy ship. You are hard to hit this way, and as soon as you come uncomfortably close they turn away and flee in direct line (provided they are not stronger than you). So its your front guns against their rear ones. Works all the time for me.
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Post by wlbjork on Nov 23, 2022 22:16:04 GMT -6
Ships on Raider and Trade Protection duties are also (usually) excluded from selection by the Battle Generator, so that's another way to keep CLs out of fights.
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