bubby
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by bubby on Nov 3, 2020 12:58:03 GMT -6
Someone please remind me why CL's are in this game? They're largely irrelevant until double and triple turrets become available - but the REAL issue is that the battle generator has absolutely no idea what to do with them.
If I had a dime for every time I got prompted with a battle that was something like 1-2 CL's vs a full Battlegroup of the enemy - featuring 2-3 Capital Ships and 4-5 supporting vessels - I'd have enough money to develop my own game without such kindergarten issues.
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Post by panzerfront on Nov 3, 2020 14:07:54 GMT -6
Honestly I’ve found my CLs to be some of my most useful units as they al see a lot of combat. I scrap or use the legacy ones for colonia work once faster ships start cropping up but they put in a lot of work for me, sinking other CLs and beating Destroyers into pulp.
Now I normally use 6000-8000 ton CLs throughout most of the game and since they’re often larger and faster than the enemy CLs they can give our beatings.
What build do you use for yours?
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Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 3, 2020 15:25:28 GMT -6
I build several types of CLs. Their usefulness varies depending on the nation being played and the particular era you are in. The main problem with cruisers is that they often are built with a specific role in mind, but there is no guarantee that the game will deploy them in that role. So the ships have to be built hoping to be placed into the optimal situation but knowing that they may be thrown into any of a number of different roles. You can control this to a certain degree by where you deploy your cruisers, but in the end, every cruiser has to be ready for any situation.
Fleet scouts - This is probably the most common type of cruiser in my fleet. It is a small cheap cruiser, lightly armored (1") and armed (perhaps 4 6" guns), but with good speed. These I keep stationed with the main fleet. Their main role is to patrol ahead of the fleet - an extremely vulnerable position, the danger ameliorated somewhat by the speed of these CLs. They are not intended to fight, though if forced into combat, they can do some damage before they are sunk. They are cheap and expendable and have no particular purpose other than early warning of approaching enemy ships. I station these ships with the main fleet, where they will often be deployed with the fleet, but they can be thrown into cruiser battles, where their speed will usually allow them to successfully run away.
CL killers - My favorite light cruisers are made to meet and destroy other light cruisers. These are always built to the maximum allowable displacement. Their large size allows for high speed to chase down their prey, strong armament to kill the prey, and maximum armor because they are definitely going into battle whenever possible. These are typically deployed with the main fleet in the hope of being selected for a cruiser battle or raider interception, but of course, they will also be deployed into other types of battles. They are built using the golden rule of warship construction - be strong enough to destroy anything you can catch and fast enough to run away from anything stronger. The arrival of BCs tends to seriously reduce the value of this type of CL.
Foreign service cruisers - These cruisers are primarily built to occupy a foreign station. If I am playing a nation with many foreign possessions I will sometimes build CLs specifically for this role. These purpose-built CLs tend to be on the larger side (size is important in this role) but of moderate effectiveness (medium speed, armor and arms) to keep down costs, but all are built with colonial service. When playing most nations, purpose-built CLs of this type are not generally required for this role and I use old CLs of any quality, regardless of original intent, once they are too slow to serve their original role.
CLAAs - In the 40s the game allows the creation of CLAAs. If the main armament is dual purpose then these cruisers are considered to be CLAAs and the game will tend to deploy these cruisers in a screening role subordinate to a carrier or BB/BC division. The design of these cruisers is almost exclusively aimed at increasing their HAA strength, which naturally includes the maximum number of AA fire directors. Armor, anti-ship guns, MAA, and LAA are all far less important because these only protect the cruiser, whereas the intent of these ships is to provide HAA protection to the carriers or battleships they are protecting. These ships need high speed to allow them to maintain position on the larger ships, which usefully allows them to run away if thrown into an interception or cruiser battle.
Raiding cruisers - I seldom build purpose-built raiders, they just don't provide enough benefit to warrant building a cruiser specialized for the role, so I can't offer much advice for this type of cruiser. However, I will occasionally assign a raiding role to an older cruiser that is simply too ineffective to deploy in any other role.
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Post by banzaigrandma on Nov 3, 2020 18:28:35 GMT -6
nope, they are fine- A CL is not going to win a broadside engagement against anything except a TR. They are good at 2 things only: raiding and running away. They also can rush an enemy, they'll last a few minutes longer than a DD. Therefore: high speed + reliable engines + long range + floatplane and put the armement on the stern and on the bow only.
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Post by wknehring on Nov 4, 2020 2:16:23 GMT -6
(Mainly after 1930) Cheap 3000-4000ts cruisers, about 26-27kt, 2x1 5-6", 4x1 3" DP, 2x1 TT, Spotterplane, 2"/1" box protection, long range, reliable diesel engines. They tend to work fine- about 20-40 VP each round. And I normally use 5-6 of them simultaniously all in different sea areas to divert enemy ships. With some additional subs, the VP sometimes break through the roof! And what I noticed- compared to AMCs, they survive their trips and are cheaper.
They become my working horses once I have 6" autoloading DPs (180+ rounds each gun are recommended^^)- some kind of Worcester-Class CLAA. And even in early stages with the first 4" DP twin guns, I build them to cover my groups. I would say these are the most important CL you can build. Without them you are doomed!
And in general, I build light armoured CLAAs with as much as possible large caliber DP autoloader-guns and good protected 4x2 DP autoloader-guns for fleet duties. Both should have 32 better 33kts. The "fleet CL" tend to have a sh... load of TT as well.
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Post by gurudennis on Nov 4, 2020 4:15:51 GMT -6
To OP:
The short story with CLs is that yes, they are pretty weak.
The long story is much more nuanced, though. The game more or less correctly portrays how these ships might be used in a real conflict where being in the right place at the right time is more important than being specifically tailored for a job or even good at it. For an example of how naval battles were fought with imperfect resources and even less perfect information, see the battle of Coronel and the subsequent battle of the Falklands in WWI. Not every naval engagement is "predictable" like Jutland was (and even so, the night after was pure chaos).
Light cruisers are a cost-saving measure over armored/heavy cruisers and at this they unquestionably succeed as far as pure cost and maintenance goes. Inevitably, they are less capable in most roles than e.g. an armored/heavy cruiser, which in turn is less capable than a BC. There's always a bigger fish.
jwsmith26 gave a very good summary of light cruiser roles above. I will add that CLs tend to be more useful if you design each of them to conform to one of the 3 distinct generations (and avoid interim designs where possible):
1. Early CLs with speed up to 24 kts (but usually 22-23 kts), submerged torpedoes and plenty of side turrets. These become hopelessly obsolete around 1920 at the latest (but usually earlier). 2. Throughout the 1920s, CLs tend to have 3+ centerline turrets (plus some side ones) and no torpedoes. They also tend to be much faster (27-28 kts being common) to be able to run away from BCs and hyper-modern CAs. 3. Late-game CLs are typically AA-focused (which they are uniquely good at, a-la USS Atlanta) with all-centerline double DP turrets and above-water torpedoes if any. Less prominently, late-game CLs can be colonial or TP (which they are cheap but mediocre at because AI nations tend to use CAs to attack colonies and raid).
CL roles are fluid throughout the game, but the bottom line is this: you should avoid building a CA for something that a CL can do, but also never ask a CL to do a CA's/BC's job. The devil is in the details and that's what makes this game so good: it makes you think and re-think and agonize over things like this.
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Post by Adseria on Nov 4, 2020 5:26:22 GMT -6
I have no problems with the way the game uses CLs. Sure, it can be annoying when it throws a couple against an enemy CA squadron, but there are plenty of times where you get put in the opposite situation. And, as long as you build them decently enough, even legacy CLs can be perfectly capable.
For reference, I normally build a fleet of legacy CLs at 6,000t with 12x6", 2.5" belt, 1" deck, around 23kn (+/-1kn), and those ships can beat pretty much any CL the AI can build in a 1v1. I also wait to replace them, at least until I can give them at least 5 centreline turrets, and usually until I can give them double turrets. By that point, those legacy ships are too slow for most uses, but they're still useful for colonial service, so I normally keep some around even after I build replacements.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2020 6:36:50 GMT -6
Someone please remind me why CL's are in this game? They're largely irrelevant until double and triple turrets become available - but the REAL issue is that the battle generator has absolutely no idea what to do with them.
If I had a dime for every time I got prompted with a battle that was something like 1-2 CL's vs a full Battlegroup of the enemy - featuring 2-3 Capital Ships and 4-5 supporting vessels - I'd have enough money to develop my own game without such kindergarten issues.
There are more problems. For example the constantly broken AI torpedo aimbot, which has the advantage in every way and every time, no matter what you do, yet some poeple keeps on denying its existence, thinking that this will solve the problem...
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Post by jwsmith26 on Nov 4, 2020 9:23:01 GMT -6
There may indeed be an issue with ships not finding torpedo firing solutions when a solution appears to be possible, but the AI controls the firing of torpedoes from both friendly and enemy ships and both sides use the same code for finding a firing solution, so the issue affects both sides equally. This information is from the developer and I have no reason to suspect that he is lying about the code and many years of experience with him to provide reasons to believe him.
It has been my experience that it is extremely rare for the AI force to achieve more torpedo hits than my own force. This is because, while both sides handle the firing of torpedoes in the same way, I am a human and I consistently put my ships in better positions to execute a torpedo attack.
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Post by seawolf on Nov 4, 2020 11:44:34 GMT -6
Someone please remind me why CL's are in this game? They're largely irrelevant until double and triple turrets become available - but the REAL issue is that the battle generator has absolutely no idea what to do with them.
If I had a dime for every time I got prompted with a battle that was something like 1-2 CL's vs a full Battlegroup of the enemy - featuring 2-3 Capital Ships and 4-5 supporting vessels - I'd have enough money to develop my own game without such kindergarten issues.
There are more problems. For example the constantly broken AI torpedo aimbot, which has the advantage in every way and every time, no matter what you do, yet some poeple keeps on denying its existence, thinking that this will solve the problem... I'm 99% sure "torpedo aimbot" is just people's bad tactics. If you micromanage your force you have to do it right. Like I guarantee if you're on Admiral mode this won't happen. I've modded and tested this game, as well as SAI, for well over a year and any bugs or inconsistencies are quite easily reproduceable if you know how, and somewhat quickly fixed by the devs
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Post by rimbecano on Nov 4, 2020 15:53:21 GMT -6
I'm 99% sure "torpedo aimbot" is just people's bad tactics. I'm 100% sure: I very rarely take a torpedo hit that comes as a complete surprise: I've always either taken a calculated risk or done something stupid against better judgment. OTOH, I still suspect that something is screwy with the friendly ship line of fire code. 80 or 90% of the time I can identify an interfering ship, but the remaining 10 or 20% leave me stumped. I really wish the devs would add visualization of what ship interferes and the point of closest approach for blocked shots.
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Post by stevethecat on Nov 4, 2020 17:37:46 GMT -6
I only build CLs for Foreign station, and usually keep the 1899 ships all the way until the end of the game, having any on active fleet is a good way of making sure that the battle generator will screw you over and give you 1 CL vs 20 CAs.
Never build a ship you don't want the battle generator to use against you.
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Post by rimbecano on Nov 5, 2020 8:06:55 GMT -6
Another comment: My impression from looking at the stats of RL turn-of-the-century protected cruisers is that the type was just as underwhelming IRL as in game. One thing to bear in mind is that length has a bearing on the speed that a ship can efficiently achieve, and so a larger cruiser has an easier time reaching high speeds then a smaller one. The primary advantage of CLs in the early game period is being able to deploy more of them due to cheapness.
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Post by rs2excelsior on Nov 5, 2020 21:53:43 GMT -6
Every now and then a thread comes up stating that light cruisers are useless in the early game and that they see no point in using them... and it always leaves me scratching my head. Light cruisers are my eyes and ears, especially before air search becomes a thing, and my defense against destroyers as torpedoes start getting better. Any time I have a fleet action (or any engagement with my Bs/BBs) and I don't have AT LEAST 3-4 CLs, I feel blind and vulnerable... and as getting in close is generally the only way to get decisive results in the early game, that caution that comes with not having CLs really hurts. At the beginning I have a division (or two, if they're small divisions) out on the scout role, to locate the enemy fleet and skirmish with enemy CLs. They pull back to a support role, where I can take manual control of a division and have them dash in between my battleline and any enemy destroyers which are getting too close for comfort. They have enough firepower to deter the enemy DDs, and if all else fails, they can eat a torpedo for one of the capital ships. They're quick and expendable enough to use as screens, to poke into areas where the enemy may be at night, etc.
I generally build jack-of-all-trades CLs for most of the game, aiming for a decent balance of cost and firepower - I aim to build them to be able to take on the AI CLs at parity, at least. They aren't the ones usually winning the battles and they are slightly expendable, but they enable the rest of the fleet to do what they need to do.
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Post by director on Nov 6, 2020 12:01:04 GMT -6
Powerful CLs are my go-to response in this game since CLs are selected for more missions than other ship-types. That means a CL is the most-common way to secure victory points. I've beaten enemy CAs with a pair of good CLs and on one occasion harried an enemy B, wrecking its upper-works as it ran. I value the CL as highly as any other type.
It is worth noting that the US Navy concluded that 8"-gunned cruisers were not as suitable for surface actions (especially night actions) as 6"-gunned cruisers due to the typically close range and higher rate of fire from the smaller caliber. I've experimented with cruisers carrying a large number of 5" and even 4" main batteries (6 or more triple turrets in the latter case) but I keep going back to 5"+1 or 6" guns. The lighter calibers can win at close ranges but you will be shot to pieces at longer ranges (at close range it looks like a machine gun cuts loose - the number of hits is astounding).
In a fleet action, CLs are one good way to kill enemy DDs. Heavy gun armament on my DDs and heavy secondary armament on my capital ships are the others. After all, if you kill his DDs you won't run much risk of torpedo attacks in the future.
The AI 'torpedo aimbot' does not exist. What does exist and is often overlooked is the AI insistence on positioning. Specifically it will do absolutely anything to keep your forces abaft its beam (IE if your force is in the east sailing north the AI will do anything to be north of your ships). This 'ahead' position allows it to better fire torpedoes since the torpedo speed is ADDED to your forward speed; this gives a high closing speed and effectively shortens the range and your change of position. If you fire torpedoes in return their speed is REDUCED by the enemy's forward speed and they may be closing on his position at only 10-15 knots or so.
If the enemy isn't running he is turning to get ahead of you... and firing torpedoes. Always. Invariably. Without exception. Constantly. NEVER FORGET THIS.
Plus I suspect the AI, as a computer, is just better at micro-management. And maybe has your course and speed info in-hand before it fires. And invariably knows when you hoist the torpedo attack flag.
I have found it helpful to slant my courses slightly away. In the above example, if I am steaming north at 20 knots and the enemy is at 250 degrees relative then I might change course to 10 degrees. This seems to materially reduce the torpedoes I take, as do minor course changes every 10 or 15 minutes or (as a last resort when his DDs charge) a unanimous turn-away. But let me repeat for emphasis: if he is ahead of your beam TORPEDOES ARE COMING. Turn parallel to or slightly away from his course!
Think of it this way: if you have a laser and I have a gun, and we both are moving, your advantage is that you can shoot at where I am and I must shoot at where you might be. The higher speed of the laser compared to the bullet increases your chance of hitting because my position effectively doesn't change as much. This is the AI's secret torpedo weapon - his better position turns your speed against you.
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