|
Post by williammiller on Dec 28, 2020 7:07:10 GMT -6
charlottep51 I would submit that there is a major difference between 20 x 8" hits and 300-400 such hits - the 5" US common round hits would also not be as damaging as 6" AP or SAP hits either. We are talking 10-20 times more hits by larger caliber weapons, which is not a small increase.
|
|
|
Post by director on Dec 28, 2020 12:08:14 GMT -6
In my role as gadfly I must point out that we assume that Hiei sank. In fact, both sides lost contact with her in the hours of darkness, and she vanished. No survivor ever was found, nor has the wreck been located. She remains perhaps the last great mystery of WW2 naval combat.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 28, 2020 12:32:51 GMT -6
In my role as gadfly I must point out that we assume that Hiei sank. In fact, both sides lost contact with her in the hours of darkness, and she vanished. No survivor ever was found, nor has the wreck been located. She remains perhaps the last great mystery of WW2 naval combat. The wreck was located by the Paul Allen Exploration Ship RV Petrel in 3000 feet of water, northwest of Savo Island. She lies upside down. Admiral Abe was ordered not to scuttle Hiei so he left her at 1900 hrs. He came back at 0100 and she was gone. She sank sometime between 1900 and 0100. They knew the exact location of her, that's how Paul Allen found her due to the attacks by our torpedo bombers. Her steering was out and she was down by the stern with a 20 degree list.
|
|
alant
Full Member
Posts: 125
|
Post by alant on Dec 28, 2020 13:39:15 GMT -6
Wreck of First Japanese Battleship Sunk By U.S. Navy in WWII Found - Hiei - see link link
|
|
|
Post by dorn on Dec 28, 2020 14:51:49 GMT -6
300-400 hits by 8" and 6" shells would be devastating to any capital ship, no matter if AON design or not. An AON design does *not* make a ship immune to fires or secondary damage, or the possibility of eventual loss from such damage, especially fire. Thank you also for your answer, maybe yours is right. I was told by navy fans that at a reasonable distance, the new-type battleship of World War II is completely immune to 8 inches and below (at a reasonable engagement distance), and her side and deck are all designed as immune zones. The superstructure also has a lower degree of protection. According to them, the equipment that may be ignite is consciously protected by armor, and it is impossible to have a fire without being penetrated. An 8-inch CA cost all the ammunition and 100% hit , Can't cause any major damage. In contrast, a CA/low tonnage BC only has protection in key areas, and the compartment armor is thin, so a small amount of ammunition can be fatal. (No offense) This statement contradicts yours, I don’t know which one is right, I just talk about my understanding These ships has citadel which protect ship from sides (belt armour), top (deck armour), front and aft (bulkheads). However any fire, any damage can disrupt or reduce protection and subsequent hit can cause troubles. There is also intakes which you cannot protect completely, your crew needs go through such areas, wires etc. There is just too many things which can go wrong, so you cannot have completely immunity.
|
|
|
Post by director on Dec 28, 2020 15:40:46 GMT -6
The last information I had was that one of the Kongo-class had been discovered, upside down and seriously damaged by internal explosions. The wreck was thought to be Kirishima...
I'll go check out the link. If Hiei has indeed been found then that closes that chapter.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 28, 2020 18:42:12 GMT -6
The last information I had was that one of the Kongo-class had been discovered, upside down and seriously damaged by internal explosions. The wreck was thought to be Kirishima... I'll go check out the link. If Hiei has indeed been found then that closes that chapter. Kirishima was found by Robert Ballard, I believe in 1999 and she was upside down. Hiei was found years later. It's easy to get confused with the information streams out there.
|
|
|
Post by rimbecano on Dec 29, 2020 0:51:58 GMT -6
In my role as gadfly I must point out that we assume that Hiei sank. In fact, both sides lost contact with her in the hours of darkness, and she vanished. No survivor ever was found, nor has the wreck been located. She remains perhaps the last great mystery of WW2 naval combat. If she had not sunk, then she would have been found, at the latest, with the advent of global satellite imagery.
|
|
|
Post by director on Dec 29, 2020 9:47:07 GMT -6
I agree. I simply point out the limit of a factual statement: no body, no proof.
|
|
|
Post by dohboy on Dec 29, 2020 11:06:50 GMT -6
I agree. I simply point out the limit of a factual statement: no body, no proof. That was last century. Guilt is now assured, a lack of body is absolute proof of obstruction of justice in addition to your other crimes.
|
|
|
Post by aeson on Dec 29, 2020 11:27:13 GMT -6
I agree. I simply point out the limit of a factual statement: no body, no proof. Hiei never turned up for another engagement, was not in either American or Japanese hands at the end of the war, and was not observed aground on a reef or an island in so heavily-patrolled an area as the region between Guadalcanal and Truk. Circumstantial evidence may not be as incontrovertible as a wreck, but if you have enough of it it's still sufficient proof. Beyond that, it is my understanding that Hiei was observed to sink by its escorts after they evacuated its crew and scuttled it due to a combination of disabling damage from the nocturnal engagement with American cruisers and likely-fatal damage from American air attacks the next day.
Also, arguing that a ship might not technically have been sunk because it may instead have been permanently grounded and abandoned in an inoperable condition is merely semantics; a warship inoperable and irrecoverably aground is as good as sunk even if it's not technically underwater.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 29, 2020 13:22:35 GMT -6
www.combinedfleet.com/hiei2.htmApparently Yamamoto ordered Admiral Abe not to scuttle Hiei but the message arrived too late. She sank about 4.5 miles from Savo Island.
|
|
|
Post by director on Dec 29, 2020 14:26:31 GMT -6
Jeez - you try to be a little lighthearted. Keep piling on, guys -
|
|
|
Post by dohboy on Dec 29, 2020 14:52:49 GMT -6
I was piling on the lighthearted humor. I'm allergic to "lol". Just assume I'm trying to be funny if there is a question. I'm an ass too, but I attempt to be a funny one.
|
|