zoomar
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by zoomar on Sept 14, 2015 12:59:08 GMT -6
This may reflect something I don't understand about how the SAI system used in RTW handles torpedo attacks, but it is very unpredictable when my AI-controlled DD divisions or other torpedo-armed ships decide to fire torpedoes. Often, they will make a rush past the my battle line as if to launch an attack on nearby enemy ships at point blank range and then turn away, apparently having not fired. About the only time my DD's deign to fire torpedoes is at a stationary ship that is already in a near sinking condition. I realize this was historically when early 20th century torpedo attacks were most successful, but I've never seen my fleet actually try to sink or disable a high value enemy target that was not a complete sitting duck.
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Post by Fredrik W on Sept 14, 2015 13:33:35 GMT -6
It may depend on the time period. Early torpedoes are crap, and are hard to find a solution with. Later on, there will be plenty of torpedo launches.
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Post by ccip on Sept 14, 2015 18:29:31 GMT -6
Besides the torpedoes themselves, it's also influenced by the development of light forces tactics. They get more coordinated over time.
My experience is pretty much the opposite - I find torpedoes devastatingly effective in the game, especially as time goes on. Early in the game the forces struggle, but from about 1915 on they're really deadly. Their success early in the game is often less because of torpedoes and tactics, and more because of inadequate torpedo protection and damage control on the early ships - it's rare to score a hit, but hits are often very destructive. Later on the hits are less destructive, but with a competent destroyer force they'll be scoring them over and over.
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Roumba
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Roumba on Sept 17, 2015 8:14:21 GMT -6
What determines how many torpedoes a ship decides to launch? Many times, I'll have DD/CLs with three or more 4x launchers choose to only fire one or two torpedoes (when they do decide to fire them).
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Post by mikebrough on Sept 17, 2015 11:13:45 GMT -6
I'm finding that my ships, from CLs to BCs, are being hit at medium-to-long range even when travelling above 30 knots. Tends to happen from the early 20s 'onwards. Is that realistic or historic?
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Post by randomizer on Sept 17, 2015 12:59:10 GMT -6
Hard to say if it's historical as there were no significant naval actions in the early 1920's. That said, the US destroyers off Samar in 1944 certainly scored hits on the Japanese battle line, which was moving at high speed. These hits were made at significant ranges and then there is the battle of Tassafaronga in 1942 so the data suggests that what you're seeing is representative of the actual situation if you are not attempting to evade.
Before WW1 a British Admiralty study indicated that the hit probability for a spread of torpedoes against a line of battleships approached 40%. This is why at the mere threat of a torpedo attack, the prudent action for the battle fleet was to turn away (turning towards increased the rate of closure and made evasion more difficult for ship captains'). Experience would demonstrate that the .40 PH was likely exaggerated but holding your course in the face of even a possible torpedo attack is risky.
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Post by ccip on Sept 17, 2015 13:01:14 GMT -6
Generally speaking yes, but I do wish there was a bit more visual warning of incoming torpedoes.
Basically, any time you suspect torpedoes in the water, change course. Any time you have ships evading torpedoes on their own, or torpedo hits, change course immediately.
Torpedo avoidance played a big role in fleet tactics after long-range torpedoes were developed - you have to take measures to stay out of torpedo range, or dodge when you're in range. Don't count on your ships to avoid torpedoes on their own, they usually spot them too late and by the time they react, it's already usually too late.
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Post by julianbarker on Sept 17, 2015 14:12:41 GMT -6
I do wish there was a bit more visual warning of incoming torpedoes. Every watch officer since 1870 has said that. In the game, when ships see torpedoes they evade, whe squadrons under AI control believe an attack is underway, they evade. If the player is in control of a squadron, then the player needs to do this.
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Post by randomizer on Sept 17, 2015 14:31:14 GMT -6
Individual ships even under Player command will try to evade a spotted torpedo, a very real problem that can reduce your well-ordered line to chaos in a remarkably short time. In the last half (maybe last two-thirds) of RTW, the primary ship-killing weapon tends to evolve from the gun to the torpedo and if you fail to appreciate this, you may see some disasters.
That's not to say that so-called "torpedo cruisers" are the answer, they're probably too specialized to be effective in the majority of tactical situations. Nor is it reasonable to assume that the gun becomes obsolescent over time. Rather the torpedo should be treated as a very real threat to your high-value units any time enemy forces, particularly light forces, get within effective torpedo range.
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Post by ccip on Sept 17, 2015 14:49:02 GMT -6
I noticed that as well. I tried building torpedo cruisers, but I realized that the AI does not really have suitable behaviours for a "torpedo cruiser" - they continue to act like ordinary cruisers, and do not go for massed launches, just occasionally pop a shot or two. Destroyer flottillas are still the go-to for a torpedo force.
Otherwise, yeah, the gun is far from obsolete. All that the development of torpedoes does is make the 10,000-yard zone a battlefield for cruiser and destroyer-sized ships - which will typically not be seriously threatened by torpedoes, and gunnery only becomes all the more important for keeping the enemy torpedo forces out of range. Otherwise, the battle ranges beyond that are still the realm of battleships, and by the time torpedoes are developed that far, you'll not want them within 10k yards of enemy forces anyway.
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Post by RNRobert on Sept 18, 2015 3:41:45 GMT -6
I'm finding that my ships, from CLs to BCs, are being hit at medium-to-long range even when travelling above 30 knots. Tends to happen from the early 20s 'onwards. Is that realistic or historic? I'm reminded of a line from the movie "Battle of Britain" where one of the veteran pilots tells the rookies "never fly in a straight line for more than 30 seconds in the combat zone." In playing various naval sims over the past 15 years- Fighting Steel, Warship Combat- Navies at War, and SAI/RTW, I have found that steaming on a straight course for a prolonged period of time is a recipe for disaster. For that reason, I will make occasional course changes or turn away maneuvers to reduce the chance of getting struck by torpedoes, especially if enemy destroyers are close by.
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Post by sabratha on Sept 18, 2015 4:30:49 GMT -6
It may depend on the time period. Early torpedoes are crap, and are hard to find a solution with. Later on, there will be plenty of torpedo launches. That is true to a point - playign Japan my first surprise attack in 1903 was an abysmal failure, with no sucessfull torpedo attacks. I had to order the destroyers back into the fray at daylight, 3 of them got got sunk and just 1 torpedo hit the enemy battleship (it sunk though). 1911 surprise attack failed completely, due to torpedo nets and overlal low amount of destroyers engaged. 1926 - surprise attack on a Russian fleet. Two capital ships sunk at the cost of 4 destroyers, many more capital ships struck by torpedoes (often repeatedly), but fail to sink. My experience tells me the torpedo ships in the game perform historiclaly if you give them torpedo training, but even under those conditions you will not get miraculous results of the sort of torpedo-hell you got at Guadalcanal in 1942 RL. Having said that, the AI usually managed to attack my battlefleets at twilight on the open sea and tried a torpedo atatck, once sinking a capital ship. My guys never did anything of teh sort, though perhaps I failed to make the best use out of them.
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