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Post by christian on Jan 15, 2022 10:03:50 GMT -6
With the upcoming DLC i think its finally time for our torpedoes to step out of the 1915s and into the 1930/35s Our current torpedoes do the following speeds. Normal torpedoes (1926 tech). 5000@38/13000@27. Oxygen torpedoes (1930 tech). 5000@38/18000@27. The American Bliss-Leavitt 21" Mark 8 Speed 36 Range 16,000 yards This torpedo was in service since 1912 Navyweps quotes a different speed and range at 29 knots for 15000 yards www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_PreWWII.phpmaritime.org/doc/jolie/part2.htmIn 1926 and 1928 the US navy designed the Mark 11 (and modified mark 11 called mark 12) torpedo. This torpedo had a three speed selector adjustable while it was in the tube. Speed (knots) Low 27, Medium 34, High 46 Range (yards) Low 15,000, Medium 10,000, High 6000 The mark 12 had a reduced speed at High speed from 46 to 44 knots but gained about 1000 yards Mark 12 high speed setting was as follows Speed 44 knots Range 7000 yards www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_PreWWII.phpmaritime.org/doc/jolie/part2.htmThese torpedoes aren't a significant improvement over in game torpedoes. but do still have significant short range improvements With almost pure Oxygen torpedoes we do see a significant improvement The long lance had 200 HP / 43,700 yards (40,000 m) / 36-38 knots 300 HP / 35,000 yards (32,000 m) / 40-42 knots 520 HP / 21,900 yards (20,000 m) / 48-50 knots British also developed 24 inch oxygen torpedoes but these were poorly enriched with only 57% oxygen by weight. Compared to this the 95-99% of the type 93 (ive seen varied numbers but generally around this %) its rather weak Type 93 weighting the same as the 24.5 inch had roughly 520 horsepower where as the 24.5 inch had 240 horsepower The british 24.5 inch torpedo (equipped on nelson class) had the following stats 15,000 yards (13,700 m) / 35 knots 20,000 yards (18,300 m) / 30 knots (torpedoes are from 1925 and 1933 for the 24.5 inch and type 93) www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTBR_PreWWII.phpwww.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTJAP_WWII.phpweaponsandwarfare.com/2020/03/06/torpedo-development-before-wwii/books.google.dk/books?id=9lquBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=24.5%22+torpedo&source=bl&ots=ZeXzCOJwA8&sig=ACfU3U2ltvDDIkMX0ex_bMN-KS_YttP3gQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsotOCjLT1AhXGS_EDHclpAKAQ6AF6BAg5EAM#v=onepage&q=24.5%22%20torpedo&f=falseI do realise that generally speaking post ww2 torpedoes are much more ASW focused and therefor drop range in addition to that submarine torpedoes never really go beyond 15k yards (because subs cant see that far anyway) The few surface to surface torpedoes which remain in service (mostly soviets) do get very good performance such as the 53-57 torpedo 19,700 yards (18,000 m) / 45 knots
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Post by jwsmith26 on Jan 15, 2022 11:57:27 GMT -6
The results obtained by torpedoes in the game are hugely influenced by how you, personally, handle destroyers in the game. Aggressive manual control of destroyers will result in a percentage of hits that is far above what was ever achieved historically. This advantage is so extreme that experienced players can probably win most battles using just their destroyer force under manual control. On the other hand, allowing the AI to handle destroyers probably results in fewer hits than were historically typical, though there is so much variation in battle situations it is quite hard to evaluate this. Even when the AI controls your destroyer force, the way you handle that force can affect the results you achieve.
I would agree that torpedo traits seem low in the later years, but I don't necessarily see their in-game performance in terms of kill rates as being far off the mark compared to historical results (assuming competent player control while using AI-controlled destroyers). Torpedoes are currently the consummate ship killers in the game, though the large Japanese torpedoes are probably underrepresented in this respect. I would not favor making changes that markedly change the end results of torpedo attacks, however I would like to see more advanced torpedoes that more accurately reflect their capabilities introduced into the game, but if ranges and speeds are increased, I would expect other factors such as accuracy to be decreased in compensation.
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Post by christian on Jan 15, 2022 13:18:09 GMT -6
The results obtained by torpedoes in the game are hugely influenced by how you, personally, handle destroyers in the game. Aggressive manual control of destroyers will result in a percentage of hits that is far above what was ever achieved historically. This advantage is so extreme that experienced players can probably win most battles using just their destroyer force under manual control. On the other hand, allowing the AI to handle destroyers probably results in fewer hits than were historically typical, though there is so much variation in battle situations it is quite hard to evaluate this. Even when the AI controls your destroyer force, the way you handle that force can affect the results you achieve. I would agree that torpedo traits seem low in the later years, but I don't necessarily see their in-game performance in terms of kill rates as being far off the mark compared to historical results (assuming competent player control while using AI-controlled destroyers). Torpedoes are currently the consummate ship killers in the game, though the large Japanese torpedoes are probably underrepresented in this respect. I would not favor making changes that markedly change the end results of torpedo attacks, however I would like to see more advanced torpedoes that more accurately reflect their capabilities introduced into the game, but if ranges and speeds are increased, I would expect other factors such as accuracy to be decreased in compensation. Main problem in this regard is that most battles (at daytime) take place at ranges considered suicide in real life. Most battles can easily take place at ranges as low as 10000-6000 yards if not shorter this is unless nighttime practically suicide. Secondary's are also much less effective than they should be at suppressing destroyers partly due to their limited ROF but also due to the low battle ranges present in the game and their horrible HORRIBLE accuracy (secondary hitrate at reasonable range is quite pitiful even for 6 inchers) (maximum spotting range is 28k yards and hitrates at 15k yards are still at best "meh") this also has large impact on Battleship combat in that deck armor is usually pretty useless for combat except against bombs (where its extremely useful) Basically this causes in game torpedoes to get "japanese nighttime torpedo hitrates" which are at 10-15% which is stupidly high (because they are firing at point blank with almost perfect accuracy) It also seems like the AI and Player launches NEVER miss a target which is not maneuvering while in reality torpedo hitrates were on average about 6.5 % (for Japanese long lances)
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Post by ludovic on Jan 15, 2022 13:50:28 GMT -6
The results obtained by torpedoes in the game are hugely influenced by how you, personally, handle destroyers in the game. Aggressive manual control of destroyers will result in a percentage of hits that is far above what was ever achieved historically. This advantage is so extreme that experienced players can probably win most battles using just their destroyer force under manual control. On the other hand, allowing the AI to handle destroyers probably results in fewer hits than were historically typical, though there is so much variation in battle situations it is quite hard to evaluate this. Even when the AI controls your destroyer force, the way you handle that force can affect the results you achieve. I would agree that torpedo traits seem low in the later years, but I don't necessarily see their in-game performance in terms of kill rates as being far off the mark compared to historical results (assuming competent player control while using AI-controlled destroyers). Torpedoes are currently the consummate ship killers in the game, though the large Japanese torpedoes are probably underrepresented in this respect. I would not favor making changes that markedly change the end results of torpedo attacks, however I would like to see more advanced torpedoes that more accurately reflect their capabilities introduced into the game, but if ranges and speeds are increased, I would expect other factors such as accuracy to be decreased in compensation. Main problem in this regard is that most battles (at daytime) take place at ranges considered suicide in real life. Most battles can easily take place at ranges as low as 10000-6000 yards if not shorter this is unless nighttime practically suicide. Secondary's are also much less effective than they should be at suppressing destroyers partly due to their limited ROF but also due to the low battle ranges present in the game and their horrible HORRIBLE accuracy (secondary hitrate at reasonable range is quite pitiful even for 6 inchers) (maximum spotting range is 28k yards and hitrates at 15k yards are still at best "meh") Basically this causes in game torpedoes to get "japanese nighttime torpedo hitrates" which are at 10-15% which is stupidly high (because they are firing at point blank with almost perfect accuracy) It also seems like the AI and Player launches NEVER miss a target which is not maneuvering while in reality torpedo hitrates were on average about 6.5 % (for Japanese long lances) I agree with jwsmith26 in that torpedoes are tweakable in theory but there'd have to be compensation elsewhere to preserve the balance since unless you're playing manual torpedo launches they seem pretty plausible overall. Maybe have some form of "disruption" that would lessen the accuracy of torpedoes when their destroyers are coming under fire? And in compensation for that, you could lengthen the command range so that destroyers can try to surround the enemy before pulling back, but wouldn't necessarily be able to drive the attack home once they close in for the kill.
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Post by christian on Jan 15, 2022 13:56:22 GMT -6
Main problem in this regard is that most battles (at daytime) take place at ranges considered suicide in real life. Most battles can easily take place at ranges as low as 10000-6000 yards if not shorter this is unless nighttime practically suicide. Secondary's are also much less effective than they should be at suppressing destroyers partly due to their limited ROF but also due to the low battle ranges present in the game and their horrible HORRIBLE accuracy (secondary hitrate at reasonable range is quite pitiful even for 6 inchers) (maximum spotting range is 28k yards and hitrates at 15k yards are still at best "meh") Basically this causes in game torpedoes to get "japanese nighttime torpedo hitrates" which are at 10-15% which is stupidly high (because they are firing at point blank with almost perfect accuracy) It also seems like the AI and Player launches NEVER miss a target which is not maneuvering while in reality torpedo hitrates were on average about 6.5 % (for Japanese long lances) I agree with jwsmith26 in that torpedoes are tweakable in theory but there'd have to be compensation elsewhere to preserve the balance since unless you're playing manual torpedo launches they seem pretty plausible overall. Maybe have some form of "disruption" that would lessen the accuracy of torpedoes when their destroyers are coming under fire? And in compensation for that, you could lengthen the command range so that destroyers can try to surround the enemy before pulling back, but wouldn't necessarily be able to drive the attack home once they close in for the kill. Agree i would prefer if accuracy was lowered. That and general combat range was increased later on by increasing maximum spotting range and increasing later firecontrol accuracy (especially of secondary's) Just feels a bit weird to have torpedo tech end in 1930 combined with hyper survivable DDs with super short ranged torpedoes
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akd
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by akd on Jan 15, 2022 15:00:55 GMT -6
Two accuracy issues for the expansion:
1. 1890 is pre-torpedo gyro. Torpedoes would only run a short distance before veering off course, sometimes significantly so. The torpedoes themselves are extremely inaccurate (or rather, extremely imprecise) even if you have a perfect solution (know exactly the target range, course and speed).
2. Even after torpedoes have gyros, their accuracy is only as good as the firing solution developed for them based on estimates of target range, course and speed. The longer you push the range, the harder it is to get a good enough solution for a direct hit even if the target does not maneuver (spreads can help, of course).
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Post by cormallen on Jan 15, 2022 16:17:19 GMT -6
I never use manual Torpedo launch control as it's way too effective. I'd like to be able to order mass launches, with lousy accuracy but significant morale/tactical impact in spooking an enemy to break off pursuit for example.
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stww2
New Member
Posts: 39
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Post by stww2 on Jan 15, 2022 19:35:04 GMT -6
You can already get that effect even if no torpedoes are launched; just fake a torpedo run with your destroyers and the AI will often break off.
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Post by christian on Jan 16, 2022 2:31:48 GMT -6
You can already get that effect even if no torpedoes are launched; just fake a torpedo run with your destroyers and the AI will often break off. This is often way more effective than people make it out to be because even if you dont launch torpedoes the enemy ships become disorganized and can quickly start loosing formation. They also cant really retaliate against your DDs because their secondary's are firing at close to max range and thus have terrible accuracy.
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Post by christian on Jan 16, 2022 2:36:42 GMT -6
Two accuracy issues for the expansion: 1. 1890 is pre-torpedo gyro. Torpedoes would only run a short distance before veering off course, sometimes significantly so. The torpedoes themselves are extremely inaccurate (or rather, extremely imprecise) even if you have a perfect solution (know exactly the target range, course and speed). 2. Even after torpedoes have gyros, their accuracy is only as good as the firing solution developed for them based on estimates of target range, course and speed. The longer you push the range, the harder it is to get a good enough solution for a direct hit even if the target does not maneuver (spreads can help, of course). Yeah 1890 torpedoes will be interesting. The first whiteheads only ran for about 800 yards at 27 knots so you have to get extremely close to even have a launch solution and even then it will probably miss. Also worth noting that like 80-90% of torpedoes produced at this time (1890) were whitehead or Schwarzkopff torpedoes
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Post by janxol on Jan 16, 2022 13:54:44 GMT -6
Regarding 1890 torpedoes i would kinda hope we'll get above water bow tube for early destroyers, to help a bit with aligning the angle for the ridiculously slow torp. And regarding late-game performance I would definitely hope that performance improves, especially for oxygen torps as they are currently quite underwhelming. Maybe not necessarily increase range that much, but long range speed I'd hope to be higher than 27 knots. If other aspects, like accuracy, need to be tweaked to keep it balanced then fair enough.
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Post by asdfzxc922 on Jan 17, 2022 13:00:48 GMT -6
Regarding 1890 torpedoes i would kinda hope we'll get above water bow tube for early destroyers, to help a bit with aligning the angle for the ridiculously slow torp. Above-water torpedoes in the C position should have about the same firing arc as submerged bow tubes, last I checked.
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Post by wlbjork on Jan 17, 2022 13:48:37 GMT -6
Regarding 1890 torpedoes i would kinda hope we'll get above water bow tube for early destroyers, to help a bit with aligning the angle for the ridiculously slow torp. And regarding late-game performance I would definitely hope that performance improves, especially for oxygen torps as they are currently quite underwhelming. Maybe not necessarily increase range that much, but long range speed I'd hope to be higher than 27 knots. If other aspects, like accuracy, need to be tweaked to keep it balanced then fair enough. Unfortunately, this was the speed for some time - the early British Destroyers had their bow tubes removed due to the risk of overrunning a torpedo fired straight forwards.
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mar
New Member
What? No, I mean that I'm a fresh hand, I am.
Posts: 8
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Post by mar on Jan 18, 2022 1:56:38 GMT -6
Well, as you can see, torpedos are basically considered as defensive weapons, which are effective only in a limited range, regardless of the maximum range...
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Post by archelaos on Jan 18, 2022 6:05:34 GMT -6
I'd love to know if the longstanding bug preventing torpedo launch (at least manual) from side or centreline tubes when the ship has bow/stern torps and is in a line astern formation will be fixed?
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