Air attack to land targets

[TheOtherPoster]

I wonder if in RTW3 it'll be possible to make air strikes to land targets during wars, either to shore infrastructures (oil refinery, or whatever) and of course to the enemy fleet at port like in Taranto. I know in RTW2 the Japanese can have this surprise attack with subs but I’m not sure we are able to replicate something like Pearl Harbour with air strikes. Anyway, air strikes to port facilities/ships were not uncommon during WWII (Mers-el-Kebir, Taranto, Darwin, Dakar, Colombo etc.) The Americans in the 1930s had also been obsessed about an enemy air strike to the Panama Canal. We can imagine similar attacks to Gibraltar or Suez, or Singapore... Not to invade the territory, just to destroy the ships/facilities there.

I think it could be fun, although potentially quite dangerous for the attacking force, depending on our naval forces and aircraft in the area. Maybe we would need to pay more attention to our land bases then, to make sure we have at least a few strike aircraft nearby our main naval bases.

[maxnacemit]

It's already possible to strike ground targets in RTW2. You choose a target from the available ground targets, choose ground strike as your planes' mission, and send them out.

[TheOtherPoster]

Yes, we can send a strike to a land target when AI throws at us a fleet battle or convoy protection or whatever.
But do we do it? Anyway, I was thinking of a specific land airstrike mission. Kind of an updating of the “shore bombardment” mission but now using aircraft carriers. Attacking harbour installations and whatever ship is at port or nearby Something like Darwin, Taranto, Dakar…

Anyway, I’ve thought of something more outrageous! we could figure out a way to design and execute these air raids ourselves: Something similar to the way invasion mechanics are but using long range and extreme range ships only and disregarding enemy strength in the area and distance from our bases.

1. It’s not an invasion, only an air raid, like the Japanese on Darwin, for example.
2. All ships to be used in the air raids must be long or extreme range, including escorting battleships and cruisers.
3. If we have bases in the same area as the target, AI will automatically allocate to the raid all our active Long range and Extreme range ships in that area. For example, the USN attacking Singapore (which at the moment is well away from enemy invasion range so it’s not point to spend on its defence, which is not very historical).
4. If we do not have bases in the same area, then AI will choose our Extreme range ships only. For example, for a Japanese fleet to attack the Panama Canal, they will first move an ER fleet to the same sea area, with at least one ER carrier, and then select Panama as its air raid target.
5. As it’s the case with invasions, only one air raid target at the time. After selecting the Panama Canal for air strike, we then would wait one or two turns before we fight the battle. AI may choose not to include all ships in the area when opening the battle screen, simulating last minute problems with a ship, more likely when we do not have bases or enough base capacity in that area.
6. The battle would be to launch the air strikes and avoid/fight enemy ships and subs and aircraft if in the area. Not all enemy ships must lie idle in port. If the enemy has an air base nearby, we may have been spotted so their ships and aircraft may be at us, we could have to fight a surface battle or call off the air strike altogether.
7. Results of the air strike: VPs according to damage to ships and port installations. Also the base capacity could be temporary reduced for a few turns until they repair the damage (that should cost them money). I would say that if the Panama or Suez Canals are attacked, maybe the enemy commerce should temporary be affected also?

Some improvements this can bring to game playing:
-. As Heads of the Navy, it would open to us new ways to design and execute offensive naval operations. At the moment we are constrained to invasions only, which require the enemy base to be very close and to have a big force superiority over the enemy. Forget about it if you are playing a minor nation against the USA or the British Empire! Anyway 98% of all bases are either too far or just part of the home nation. In any case, they cannot be invaded. This very much limits what we can do and runs against what is historically accurate (not need to spend on most bases because they will never be invaded, doesn’t matter how important they were historically).
If we allow air strikes we can overcome these issues and design air raids that
1. Strike enemy bases too far to be invaded, and
2. in areas dominated by a superior enemy navy. For example, an Italian air strike on Suez.

-. This would force us to a more historically accurate deployment of forces and resources.
-. It would improve the strategic side of the game
-. Also, it would make the building of long and extreme range ships more useful. (i.e. we would actually build them!)

[aeson]

Oct 7, 2022 4:56:30 GMT -6 TheOtherPoster said:

Yes, we can send a strike to a land target when AI throws at us a fleet battle or convoy protection or whatever.
But do we do it? Anyway, I was thinking of a specific land airstrike mission. Kind of an updating of the “shore bombardment” mission but now using aircraft carriers. Attacking harbour installations and whatever ship is at port or nearby Something like Darwin, Taranto, Dakar…

I fairly often send air strikes against airfields at night, or right at the start of a battle if one is nearby; I'll also throw air strikes against coastal batteries while mopping up after the main fighting in a coastal raid or something like that ends.

[avimimus]

There is a point here that in the initial post-war period strikes against land based targets were a major motivation for the U.S. to maintain and develop larger carriers. In fact several types of twin-engined bomber were developed for the role (e.g. A-J, A-3, A-5) and it continues to the present day.

So if one is modelling doctrines in the later 1940s and beyond - then land-attack being a major role (and its impact on competing for both deck space and munitions stores) is something one has to model.

Of course, dedicated anti-submarine (e.g. helicopter carriers) and fleet defense carriers focussed on air-defence (e.g. Kuznetsov class) also exist.

[srndacful]

Oct 5, 2022 7:26:36 GMT -6 TheOtherPoster said:

I wonder if in RTW3 it'll be possible to make air strikes to land targets during wars, either to shore infrastructures (oil refinery, or whatever) and of course to the enemy fleet at port like in Taranto. I know in RTW2 the Japanese can have this surprise attack with subs but I’m not sure we are able to replicate something like Pearl Harbour with air strikes. Anyway, air strikes to port facilities/ships were not uncommon during WWII (Mers-el-Kebir, Taranto, Darwin, Dakar, Colombo etc.) The Americans in the 1930s had also been obsessed about an enemy air strike to the Panama Canal. We can imagine similar attacks to Gibraltar or Suez, or Singapore... Not to invade the territory, just to destroy the ships/facilities there.

I think it could be fun, although potentially quite dangerous for the attacking force, depending on our naval forces and aircraft in the area. Maybe we would need to pay more attention to our land bases then, to make sure we have at least a few strike aircraft nearby our main naval bases.

Yes - an aircraft version of the old Coastal Bombardment mission would definitely add some more spice to the game - especially in (say) preparation for the amphibious landing. Knocking out communications and supply depots - just for a start of the list - would go a long way to soften up the target. 

And if the developer decides to go wild and, for example, adds some permanency to the game - we could even have a chance (however small) to destroy a strategic asset (like Coastal Fortification) or reduce it (like Base Capacity) - giving us a clear sense of threat, and a reason to field some fighters on the land airfields beyond the basic 'airfield cover'.
I mean, sure, we could rebuild it afterwards, but until it's rebuilt - it's not available.
Or maybe just list it as damaged with 'time to repair' ticking down (like in ship's case)?
Idk - just throwing ideas at the wall here, seeing if anything sticks. 

Cheers!

[JagdFlanker]

having recently watched the first couple episodes of The Operations Room Youtube series on Iwo Jima
youtu.be/dpiYR1_CsiI

as well as Why Didn't the Naval Barrage on Iwo Jima Work? on their sister channel

youtu.be/zg5eOqKpbGo

made me think land airstrikes could be used to support an ongoing invasion as well - advancing troops might request ground support for their advance, like taking out fortifications or other targets

might be tricky to implement, but over the course of a battle supporting an invasion perhaps targets can spontaneously 'pop up' here and there over land (1-3 times per battle) that requires the player to launch an airstrike (or send ships to bombard) to neutralize. this might be in addition to fighting off an enemy fleet as well, so the player would need to decide whether they can divert resources to handle land air support and/or the enemy fleet - prioritize the enemy fleet while ignoring air support and your troops may take months longer to conquer the enemy territory, or have a greater chance of being defeated

while on the subject, i'l mention that perhaps in invasion battles, in addition to safely escorting your transports to the invasion beach perhaps there should be (a) bombardment target(s) that need to be knocked out before the transports get there for the invasion to have a chance to proceed so the troops can safely land 

there could even be a "pre-invasion battle" the month before the actual invasion where the navy has to knock out several land targets for the invasion battle to happen the next month