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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 15, 2023 6:27:53 GMT -6
A question I can't answer. When a shell - in particular an armor-piercing shell - missed its mark and ended up in the water (the most frequent case) did it explode or not? I assume that the column of water raised by a non-exploding shell was clear, while in the other case there was also smoke from the explosion. The same, I assume, is true in the case of bombs dropped from an aircraft. In particular, in the attached photo which refers to HMS Gloucester in the Mediterranean, in your opinion is the British ship subjected to an aerial bombardment from high altitude or to ship fire?  |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 15, 2023 7:24:24 GMT -6
A question I can't answer. When a shell - in particular an armor-piercing shell - missed its mark and ended up in the water (the most frequent case) did it explode or not? I assume that the column of water raised by a non-exploding shell was clear, while in the other case there was also smoke from the explosion. The same, I assume, is true in the case of bombs dropped from an aircraft. In particular, in the attached photo which refers to HMS Gloucester in the Mediterranean, in your opinion is the British ship subjected to an aerial bombardment from high altitude or to ship fire? View AttachmentI believe the splashes are bombs dropped by stuka's. The splashes are nearly vertical so they were not dropped from low altitude by a low flying bomber. Stuka bombs would splash nearly vertical. That's my guess. Shells from ships, such as armor piercing have delay action fuses so if they hit the water, they would not explode on contact, but after sinking into the water, then they will explode. So you might still see a geyser. |
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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 15, 2023 8:52:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification.
I too think that the image refers to an aerial bombardment. However, since the explosions were almost simultaneous, I am led to think that it was a high-altitude bombing. It also seems to me that Stukas used larger bombs, as appears in the photos of the attack on HMS Illustrious
The attached photo is published in a recent work (in Italian) by Enrico Cernuschi and is entitled: "Off Gavdos 28 March 1941. The cruiser Gloucester under Italian fire." The source from which that photo comes is not reported.
I am of the opinion that the author is wrong, also because there is no trace of the smoke screen used by Admiral Pridham Whippel's cruisers in the morning of 28.3.41, moreover, because it does not appear that the ship is running away at full speed, as it happened.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 15, 2023 9:14:06 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification. I too think that the image refers to an aerial bombardment. However, since the explosions were almost simultaneous, I am led to think that it was a high-altitude bombing. It also seems to me that Stukas used larger bombs, as appears in the photos of the attack on HMS IllustriousThe attached photo is published in a recent work (in Italian) by Enrico Cernuschi and is entitled: "Off Gavdos 28 March 1941. The cruiser Gloucester under Italian fire." The source from which that photo comes is not reported. I am of the opinion that the author is wrong, also because there is no trace of the smoke screen used by Admiral Pridham Whippel's cruisers in the morning of 28.3.41, moreover, because it does not appear that the ship is running away at full speed, as it happened.
Read this, it was Italian warships.
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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 15, 2023 9:37:33 GMT -6
I do not understand.
It is known that from the first encounter with the Italian ships off Gavdos the British cruisers fled away to escape the fire of the enemy, which had bigger guns, covering themselves with smoke screens and zigzagging.
None of this appears in the photo.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 15, 2023 9:56:15 GMT -6
I do not understand. It is known that from the first encounter with the Italian ships off Gavdos the British cruisers fled away to escape the fire of the enemy, which had bigger guns, covering themselves with smoke screens and zigzagging. None of this appears in the photo. Here is a map of the action: 
In forty-two minutes of action Trieste, Trento, and Bolzano fired 132, 214, and 189 8-inch rounds, respectively. Iachino’s report described this bombardment as “deliberately slow, but with a regular rhythm.” 30 Pridham-Wippell commented that the Italian fire was “accurate to begin with[;] . . . [Gloucester] snaked the line to avoid hits.” 31
O’Hara, Vincent P.. Struggle for the Middle Sea: The Great Navies at War in the Mediterranean Theater, 1940-1945 (p. 88). Naval Institute Press. Kindle Edition.
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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 15, 2023 10:02:52 GMT -6
All this was known to me.
HMS Gloucester not only "snaked" but also emitted a smokescreen.
I keep thinking that particular photo was NOT taken off Gavdos on 28 March1941.
Thanks anyway
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 16, 2023 7:48:32 GMT -6
All this was known to me. HMS Gloucester not only "snaked" but also emitted a smokescreen. I keep thinking that particular photo was NOT taken off Gavdos on 28 March1941. Thanks anyway Sorry, I did not know what you knew. I have searched for photo's of the engagement but no luck. Long range gunfire would cause those kinds of splashes as would high level bombing or dive bombers. Who knows? |
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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 16, 2023 15:13:20 GMT -6
Some other entirely credible photos of that engagement, with British ships moving at high speed and smoke screen, can be found in Cernuschi's text that I mentioned earlier.
Tomorrow I will try to put them on this thread.
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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 17, 2023 2:50:55 GMT -6
The images included here would have been taken on the morning of 28 March 1941 off the coast of Gavdos and would refer respectively to HMS Ajax and HMS Orion under fire from the battleship RN Vittorio Veneto, a shell of which would have raised the splash that can be seen shortly distance from Orion. Source: "A colpi di cannone" 1st part by Enrico Cernuschi (edited c/o Rivista Marittima, Oct. 2022) The difference between these images and that of HMS Gloucester above is striking.   |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 17, 2023 7:09:11 GMT -6
The images included here would have been taken on the morning of 28 March 1941 off the coast of Gavdos and would refer respectively to HMS Ajax and HMS Orion under fire from the battleship RN Vittorio Veneto, a shell of which would have raised the splash that can be seen shortly distance from Orion. Source: "A colpi di cannone" 1st part by Enrico Cernuschi (edited c/o Rivista Marittima, Oct. 2022) The difference between these images and that of HMS Gloucester above is striking. View AttachmentView Attachment IMHO, images are two fuzzy. Why don't you blow up the image of the Glocester and compare it to a real drawing of the ship to see if it is, in fact, the HMS Gloucester. Do it like a fleet intel officer would do it to determine it.
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Post by vonfriedman on Feb 18, 2023 2:09:03 GMT -6
Very interesting, thanks. In my opinion, based on the silhouette and the camouflage shape, she is indeed HMS Gloucester, but it is NOT the 28.3.1941 In fact, on the same website there is a photo of the British cruisers under Italian fire, from which we note, in addition to the high speed and the smoke screens, that the near miss of an Italian shell raises a completely different type of splash, compared to the photo we are talking about.  |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 18, 2023 7:59:01 GMT -6
Very interesting, thanks. In my opinion, based on the silhouette and the camouflage shape, she is indeed HMS Gloucester, but it is NOT the 28.3.1941 In fact, on the same website there is a photo of the British cruisers under Italian fire, from which we note, in addition to the high speed and the smoke screens, that the near miss of an Italian shell raises a completely different type of splash, compared to the photo we are talking about. View AttachmentUnless you have the actual geographical position of HMS Glousester at the time of the splashes, you really can't say that it isn't 28.3.1941. Update: 28th Under fire from Italian cruiser TRENTO and made enemy report to CinC in HMS WARSPITE. Took part in the subsequent engagement with Italian Fleet at the Battle of Cape Matapan. For full details see Naval Staff History, Battle Summary No 44.)I would look for the Battle Summary No. 44 for a complete report on locations of the ships. |
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