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Post by tbr on Dec 25, 2015 15:06:25 GMT -6
That "other dreadnought game" did have arc lights and illumination rounds. They made for very interesting night battles, with the illumination rounds carrying the potential for greatly increased combat (sighting) distance and the arc lights "capturing" close contacts for higher hit propability. Could we see either or both in RTW?
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 25, 2015 16:14:00 GMT -6
Ships are assumed to use what's appropriate, bit it is not simulated in detail. Pesronally, I am not sure simulating individual ships using starshells and searchlights would add as much as it would cost in added complexity.
Edit: Though I admit it would probably look nice!
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Post by tbr on Dec 25, 2015 17:05:27 GMT -6
As is the abstraction detracts from the experience. While searchlights could safely be abstracted starshells can add a lot to any night battle and cannot be abstracted into an uniform sighting range. DD's illuminatng for BB's would also become a viable tactic, with the illuminated targets not getting enough data from gunflashes (if they even see those) to return fire on the BB's. Starshells could greatly extend night sighting and enable longer range combat with units pitching in which only can see the target because of illumination.
We need size, behaviour and status (gunflashes, own searchlights on, speed in respect to "bone" bowwave and, with coal firing, sparks form the stacks) dependant "visual signatures", at least at night, not just an uniform abstracted sighting range.
An average ship could have a signature of "1.0" as a modifier of night sighting range against it, with positive or negative modifiers added based upon different factors. This could mean that at a visibility of 3000 yards a ship with a 0.9 signature would only be seen at 2700 yards and ID'ed later as well etc. Night training would work on those modifiers as well.
All together this could make night combat far more interesting.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 25, 2015 17:18:34 GMT -6
Yes I agree there is scope for more details, not least having starshells as an inventable tech, IIRC the Germans fired some at Jutland and they were a new thing to the British then. Not saying it wouldn't add to the game but everything has a cost in time and effort, and a designer has to draw the line in complication somewhere if a game is ever to be finished.
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Post by tbr on Dec 26, 2015 4:02:43 GMT -6
Using the above "signature" mechanism implementing starshells could be relatively easy, if one abstracts "horizonting" (qv?). A starshell is fired on a location at the map with 3kyd night sighting range, a ship checks on the closest starshell whether it is in one of three diameter circles around that position, at the largest diameter (say, 3kyd) it gets a 1.5 visual signature modifier, which leads to it being visible at 4,5 kyd (without other modifiers), at the medium one (2kyd) a 2.5 modifier for 7,5kyd visibility, and at tha smallest (1kyd) a 4 times multiplier for 12kyd visibility.
Have the starshell with a limited time of life and reduce the effects by half for the last 20% of its lifetime (due to lower height).
Of course this might mean a total revamp of the sighting mechanism but I think it should be implementable. Question is whether it is feasible within your time/capacity constraints for RTW. If RTW2 covers the "War Plan Orange" timeline it should however cover more complex nighttime sighting due to the IJN focus on night combat. Mentioning that we also would need an additional fleet torpedo firing mode...
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Post by kyle on Dec 26, 2015 13:33:10 GMT -6
The old Dos game called Action Stations had searchlights and star shells. It was challenging to direct the lights and shells, but fun. If I could figure out how to play it on Windows 10 I probably would still boot it up once in a while. The SAI engine reminds me of it a bit.
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Post by Fredrik W on Dec 26, 2015 16:25:54 GMT -6
The SAI designer did play Action Stations once upon a time... That game was a milestone, the benchmark on which all naval simulations should be judged!
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Post by director on Dec 26, 2015 23:50:57 GMT -6
Yes, but the AI in SAI is far ahead of Action Stations. I had to give up on it because I could no longer stand every AI formation disintegrating into a mob melee charge.
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Post by julianbarker on Dec 27, 2015 3:10:45 GMT -6
I am also a very big fan of Action Stations. I still have it on my harddrive somewhere.
IIRC burning ships created illumination also. The problem isn't just the illumination. You also need to model silhouettes against illumination etc. I can see why all this is abstracted.
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Post by cwemyss on Dec 27, 2015 10:52:15 GMT -6
I was just reading about Savo Island this morning. Of something like 45 star shells fired by USS Chicago, 6 actually illuminated.
And I get the impression it was a low cloud deck, so for some portion of their flight the star shells were in the clouds. So the few that did light off... weren't terribly helpful.
Neptune's Inferno, by James Hornfischer. Good read so far.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 27, 2015 11:01:19 GMT -6
I was just reading about Savo Island this morning. Of something like 45 star shells fired by USS Chicago, 6 actually illuminated. And I get the impression it was a low cloud deck, so for some portion of their flight the star shells were in the clouds. So the few that did light off... weren't terribly helpful. Neptune's Inferno, by James Hornfischer. Good read so far. Because Japan assumed she would be the weaker force in any Pacific War, she decided to fight at night. She developed parachute star shells and parachute flares, along with improved searchlights. This did give her the advantage in night engagements early in the war. This was evident at the Battle of Savo Island. My dad told me that some nights you could not even see Savo Island from Guadalcanal, it was so hazy and fog covered. Your book is a good one, I have it in my collection. Enjoy.
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Post by tbr on Dec 27, 2015 14:04:20 GMT -6
I just think starshells would add a nice level of complexity to the night battles. For "non iluminateable" low visibility fights we still have the storms with heavy rain, night or day.
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