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Post by blarglol on May 6, 2023 17:01:19 GMT -6
I've not seen any small torpedo craft at all in any of the AARs that have surfaced covering the 1890 start and one chap did try and design a DD and got a "These have not been invented yet" message (technically true but...) so it looks like the whole Jeune Ecole thing is a bust! Well I hope some do, the Jeune Ecole strategy was quite influential
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Post by srndacful on May 10, 2023 22:22:54 GMT -6
Well, cormallen , blarglol and TheOtherPoster- you know what they say: when you're at the bottom - there's no way to go but up. I've been watching as many YouTube videos as I can, and as far as I can tell: 1. Officers and their assignment minigame is going to be a ton of fun 2. Divisions and their assignments are, basically, godsent 3. I did not expect to like the new ship graphics as much as I did 4. Not having seen any missiles yet, I'm not sure how I'll like them - but I'm certainly up for trying - especially after reading wlbjork 's post 5. 1935 start lets me play with aircraft right off the bat On the other hand, 1890 start is such a disappointment that I don't think I'll even try it. To me, it's so obviously a 1900 start with a new coat of paint slapped on, that I'll just go ahead and play from 1900 instead. I mean, sure - I'll be watching like a hawk for any improvements to it - but, as it stands right now, it's got more holes than the designer jeans the kids are wearing nowadays. All in all: I'm in - see you May 18th!
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Post by cormallen on May 11, 2023 1:02:20 GMT -6
Well, cormallen , blarglol and TheOtherPoster - you know what they say: when you're at the bottom - there's no way to go but up. I've been watching as many YouTube videos as I can, and as far as I can tell: 1. Officers and their assignment minigame is going to be a ton of fun 2. Divisions and their assignments are, basically, godsent 3. I did not expect to like the new ship graphics as much as I did 4. Not having seen any missiles yet, I'm not sure how I'll like them - but I'm certainly up for trying - especially after reading wlbjork 's post 5. 1935 start lets me play with aircraft right off the bat On the other hand, 1890 start is such a disappointment that I don't think I'll even try it. To me, it's so obviously a 1900 start with a new coat of paint slapped on, that I'll just go ahead and play from 1900 instead. I mean, sure - I'll be watching like a hawk for any improvements to it - but, as it stands right now, it's got more holes than the designer jeans the kids are wearing nowadays. All in all: I'm in - see you May 18th! I generally agree, though I've not been a huge fan of the aircraft in game (they always felt slightly tacked-on to what's basically a WW1 era ship game?) I'll certainly see how they go this time. I REALLY like the Officer Management, Ship Division control and ship history stuff and the intra-AI warfare and diplomacy will be unteresting. I'm very happy to see more nations being simultaneously in play but 1890 is very much a period of "Great Powers" and "Minor Powers" which huge disparities (Only Britain, Russia, France and maybe Italy have fleets capable of much deep sea Fleet action?) between they naval strengths, that is an area where optimistic US players may suffer a bit of a shock as the real USN in 1890 consisted of a handfull of cruisers and corvettes as they were only just starting their journey to greatness! Whether the game's diplomacy model will temper tensions leading to wars between wildly unequal opponents will be an interesting question? The graphics look a little cluttered sometimes but I suspect I'll either get used to that or just calm them down a bit when I start building my own navies? Like you the 1890 start stuff is the least impressive part of the new release (at the moment? We are mostly seeing late-Beta-ish versions - one YTuber commented that patches were dropping and changing things still while he was recording - so the launch version may fix some stuff?): I've commented on it's "issues" on the Matrix forum and William has replied and said - "Most of the factors you mention are included in the game, but not always to the same extent that they affected ship design in real history, as that would seem 'upsetting' in game..."
Which I thought a little odd for such a niche game as RTW. I suspect most players either start off knowing enough about the period (to be not "upset" by terrible guns, overweight armour, non-existant fire control and relatively slow ships generally?) or educate themselves via the numerous YTubers putting out appropriate content (Drach etc) "Also, one of the intended uses for an 1890 start was to allow players to better setup their 1900-era fleets using in-game play." Now, that does rather sound like how I might end up using it, especially as they are not trusting us to design our own 1890 start fleets! I'll probably try and design "Quasi-Historical" navies for everyone for a better 1890 start... Playing around with Jan1890 savegames should eventually allow something to be cobbled together? (It'll be somewhat more time consuming than it needs to be though!) Most of the start Battlefleets should be cluttered with ageing Ironclads of various sorts though and the new ship design system looks like it'll be easier to make these without having to resort to the brute-force-edits I had to use for the 1900 navies I made...? As to "Upsetting the players" perhaps it's a problem of expectation management. Anyone seeking the more effective gunnery of WW1+ in the later Victorian age is already going to be able to just start their journey later (1920 or 1935 etc), which seems a fairer way of addressing the problem? All in all I'm really looking forward to RTW3.
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Post by dorn on May 11, 2023 6:07:36 GMT -6
If player can build their fleet in 1890, player will smash AI as AI is forced to generate sub par ships as most ships in 1890 were from ironclad era, inefficient armour schemes, obsolete guns etc.
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Post by cormallen on May 11, 2023 8:02:28 GMT -6
If player can build their fleet in 1890, player will smash AI as AI is forced to generate sub par ships as most ships in 1890 were from ironclad era, inefficient armour schemes, obsolete guns etc. Most of the AI generated fleets seen in the AARs and YouTube sessions so far for 1890 have however largely not been from the Ironclad era, the cruisers especially are very fast and modern! It's true that all the fleets are fairly similar (not seeing the large numbers of full rigged cruisers that should indeed make up the bulk of the world's fleets for example). If the Auto fleets were full of 1870/80s trash you would have a point, though as it's a single player game I'm not sure how much it would matter? I had to make my own fleets for everyone to get more historically starts for my 1900 campaign in RTW2 because I actually like Fighting with historically appropriate and often obsolescent forces. As William has suggested in the other place or may be that the 1890 games best function will be as a feeder for players 1900 campaigns?
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Post by srndacful on May 11, 2023 8:17:02 GMT -6
If player can build their fleet in 1890, player will smash AI as AI is forced to generate sub par ships as most ships in 1890 were from ironclad era, inefficient armour schemes, obsolete guns etc. Well, of course: 1890 is ironclad era. (I presumed the player will be forced to construct ironclads as well) Pre-dreadnoughts began to be built in 1892 (Royal Sovereigns) [or '95 (Majestics) - depending on who you ask] - which is well into the 1890 start - and they had, basically, the same effect on ironclads as the Dreadnoughts had on them 13 years later: rendered them absolutely obsolete. Besides, we already have player-designed navies in 1900 start: and I don't see any problems there ... unless I'm missing something? cormallen: "Also, one of the intended uses for an 1890 start was to allow players to better setup their 1900-era fleets using in-game play."... well, damn - I haven't even thought about that! Okay, then - I might just give it a go. Cheers!
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Post by TheOtherPoster on May 11, 2023 9:46:48 GMT -6
I think the problem is that in the game, to keep things easy, we do not need to give our ships very thick armour. That could be confusing: a 15in compound belt from 1890 will be worse than just 9in Krupp in 1900. There could be ways to avoid confusion, but I guess they have decided against it and preferred to keep things simple. So of course we cannot be allowed to build our own legacy fleet, because 8in of armour are good enough in 1890, so we really do not need to build ships with very heavy thick narrow belts, low freeboard, low speed, short range, cramped accommodation… while AI is still building those kind of ships for everybody else. I must say I’ve been taken aback by that quoted statement that now reduces the 1890 start to just a way for “players to better setup their 1900-era fleets” instead of being a real start on its own right. I guess it explains the way it's been done, but it's a bit disappointing. Still RTW3 has so many great and interesting new features, also the 1890 start, that I'm sure I will spend countless happy hours playing it (and at times angry and sad and any other possible mood too )
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Post by skyhawk on May 11, 2023 11:08:44 GMT -6
We're now quite far off track for this thread. Lets see if we can pull it back in line somewhat...
I'm curious to see, especially for an 1890 start, how much the AI makes use of larger Aviso/colonial KE designed craft. I'm talking 900+ ton craft that could count as extremely light cruisers but that aren't cruisers by game standards. I know, as a player, i've made use of them quite a bit early on and that others who've been posting AARs from the upcoming release make use of them as well. But I want to know if the AI nations will match that use or if they'll just stick to smaller minesweeper and ASW designs.
Edit: By the look of things from the AARs posted so far the enemy nations do indeed use large KE early on...and rather large and potentially powerful ones too. I wonder how widespread and prolonged that will be.
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Post by TheOtherPoster on May 11, 2023 12:44:35 GMT -6
As we all know, in RTW2 KEs cannot have torpedoes. For what I've seen so far, that may have not changed in RTW3: I haven't seen any KE with torpedoes yet. Which means that, as in RTW2, we could design them as 900+ gunboats but still not as torpedo gunboats (TGB).
Anyway, at least now KEs do come up in battles, so we can use them as part of our combat fleets, at least until DDs come along. I think in RTW2 KEs always have a fighting value of 0, regardless of their weapons, speed, armour or anything else. I wonder if that's still the case in RTW3.
Still I haven't seen any Torpedo boat or coastal TB squadron in the 1890 start. They may have skipped those too in RTW3. That would be a pity, given the at the time still quite popular Jeune Ecole theories.
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Post by cormallen on May 11, 2023 12:50:44 GMT -6
We're now quite far off track for this thread. Lets see if we can pull it back in line somewhat... I'm curious to see, especially for an 1890 start, how much the AI makes use of larger Aviso/colonial KE designed craft. I'm talking 900+ ton craft that could count as extremely light cruisers but that aren't cruisers by game standards. I know, as a player, i've made use of them quite a bit early on and that others who've been posting AARs from the upcoming release make use of them as well. But I want to know if the AI nations will match that use or if they'll just stick to smaller minesweeper and ASW designs. Edit: By the look of things from the AARs posted so far the enemy nations do indeed use large KE early on...and rather large and potentially powerful ones too. I wonder how widespread and prolonged that will be. The navies of the time did indeed have quite a few sub-2500 ton cruisers, Gunboats, corvettes and sloops. Ranging from colonial types, often full rigged to extend endurance on distant stations, to slightly more modern "3rd class protected cruisers" like the British Pearl and Pelorus classes and the "missing link" that is all those "Torpedo Gunboats and Cruisers" that were the main way navies of the period took torpedoes to battle. Most of these can be visually simulated already but unless I'm very much mistaken none of them are allowed torpedoes? I dislike the gamey trope of the 1600 ton "Colonial Corvette" with just a couple of light guns and a flag to wave so I tended to mostly use fairly sturdy, lightly armoured and reasonable heavily armed things for my colonial stations. (At least if I'm playing as someone who has a Global empire). Even the US got in on the game with their "Peace Cruisers" but they are too big to fit into any sensible "Corvette" bracket at over 3000 tons ... At least they get the option of torpedoes though!
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Post by skyhawk on May 11, 2023 14:01:30 GMT -6
You have to disconnect your knowledge of history from the mechanics of the game, especially in edge cases like the catch all KE category, to not find yourself constantly frustrated with the game. I too would love to be able to produce light torpedo cruisers and torpedo gunboats but the game is so broad in scope that edge issues like this really aren't all that important to the game overall. Given this teams history of patching in things though, having played through RTW 1 and 2, there's still a decent chance that such things will be added in time. Lets see what there is to offer upon release, enjoy it, and then start pushing for changes in areas like expanded light forces.
I produce colonial KE in sizes that will best fit the regions tonnage requirements so sizes will vary. I try for long range or better and reliable engines but that combination isn't always available. If its not reliable engines are the preferred imo. As for "just a couple of light guns" I prefer to run vessels that would give light scout cruisers a run for their money if at all possible. 4" or better guns with a few secondary guns, a decent turn of speed, and armor if I can manage it though usually on the lighter side if I do run armor(narrow belt is a favorite).
After light AVs roll around though I like to replace colonial KE with them...especially once catapults are available. And that rolls me back around to wondering if later KE will have catapult, missile, and helipad options. If so then my switch to AVs in the 20s and 30s might not happen as often in RTW3.
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Post by cormallen on May 11, 2023 15:01:19 GMT -6
Oh, I certainly try to not mind but as they chose to add this early period it's a touch annoying that it's looking a little generic in it's current state? This is the age of Ironclads being eclipsed by Pre-Dreadnoughts, the age of the Jeune Ecole trying to do away with Battleships entirely! We should be seeing the arrival of Destroyers, coming to guard against the threat of the swarms of Torpedo Boats. We do get the former, just oddly not the latter?! What are these new Craft called again?
This is the era where steam and steel come together to truly dominate. It'll get better of course, not least because the modders will do what they can to fill in the missing pieces and add more character to the ships of the first decade? (Go go gadget - Seawolf?)
In truth that's the stuff I enjoy. I spent a frankly ridiculous amount of time redesigning All the national start fleets for my 1900 campaign and then replacing all the ship templates up to 1945-ish with my takes on historical and never-were designs. I then added in a bunch of stuff from other modders for variety.
I'll be happy enough playing around of course but it's just a touch annoying to basically be told that we can't possibly be trusted to try our hand at the early game fleets because WE might not get it right?! They do realize that anyone wishing an easy ride can just hack the save game with notepad right? And that this is completely ok because it's single player and it's all about having a good time and living your best life/achieving brutal naval world domination/building your own version of history and playing in that sandpit...
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Post by srndacful on May 11, 2023 22:22:09 GMT -6
cormallen : Since KE's can now have an active role in naval battles, I'd say we'll see a lot less of those 'gamey' designs. Actually, we might even see a rise in 'small war' actions - which would give us more battles to fight - and that's always nice. TheOtherPoster : I was disappointed about Torpedo Boats, too - especially since they still persist with the screen formation in 1890, which, in the absence of anything to be screened against, is about as useful as udders on a snake. What is puzzling to me, however, is that this problem has a really simple solution: Just add the ability to mount fixed, forward-facing, above-water torpedo tubes to KE's and DD's. Naturally, I don't know how much of a programming challenge that is going to be - but, whether single-shot or reloadable (or both), they will still let us build the torpedo gunboats and early DD's. Speaking of which: now that we have divisions (and, therefore, simplified management of the large amounts of ships) this solution would also be the perfect time to introduce the Torpedo Boats as real ships: Call 'em proto-DD's and introduce them right at the start (with a 200 ton limit, perhaps?) Sure, there'll be a ton of them, and the players might not be all that inclined to all the micromanagement - but now that we have divisions, that part is out of the picture anyways. Hell, it certainly beats that awkward fiddling with "MTB flotillas as Coastal Fortifications" - and making it work as an exception to the rule. FFS, I've lost count of how many times I had DD's miss the battle because they didn't have the necessary range - TB's would be even worse: you'd literally have to be right next to a port - which is, again, how they were used historically. And at least now we'd have people understand why the screens and DD's needed to be built - once they sh!t their pants seeing 10s of TB's (with 40s of torpedoes) approaching their precious battleships - knowing full well what'll happen if just one of those torps hits. Who knows? We might even convert a few to the pleasures of Jeune Ecole. *insert evil chuckle here*
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Post by srndacful on May 12, 2023 8:27:48 GMT -6
Also, does anybody know what's the status of the various Missile Boats? Can they be built in RtW3?
For reference: I'm talking about 200 to 300 ton ship with top speed of about 35 to 40 knots, no armour, perhaps a 2 or 3 inch gun and 4 to 8 SSMs.
Edit: so, that one's obviously a no.
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Post by blarglol on May 15, 2023 7:40:07 GMT -6
We're now quite far off track for this thread. Lets see if we can pull it back in line somewhat... I'm curious to see, especially for an 1890 start, how much the AI makes use of larger Aviso/colonial KE designed craft. I'm talking 900+ ton craft that could count as extremely light cruisers but that aren't cruisers by game standards. I know, as a player, i've made use of them quite a bit early on and that others who've been posting AARs from the upcoming release make use of them as well. But I want to know if the AI nations will match that use or if they'll just stick to smaller minesweeper and ASW designs. Edit: By the look of things from the AARs posted so far the enemy nations do indeed use large KE early on...and rather large and potentially powerful ones too. I wonder how widespread and prolonged that will be. This is welcome news. Only three more days until we get to experiment ourselves.
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