Triple/TPS speed limit is too strict

[tankaxe]

I find it strange and very ridiculous that standard type battleships are impossible to make until the 1930s. And if you want to build one earlier it's gonna have to be with completely lackluster torpedo protection.

Because of this, I highly recommend that the triple turret configuration with TPS greater than 2 speed limitation be boosted to 23kts at most, 21 kts at the least. These restriction should only be applied to fast BBs, BCs and CAs that would have narrow hullforms in an attempt to achieve high speeds.

18knots is just too mind boggling low of a speed limit and I highly recommend to be revised. 'Slow BBs' for the era was measured through 21-23 knots, no one ever build a triple arrangement on a 18knot ship.

[wlbjork]

The Pennsylvania-class have a 3" torpedo protection bulkhead, rated to withstand 300lbs (140kg) of TNT - or roughly the power of a British 18" torpedo of WW1.

That very much seems like TPS 1 to me.

Nor can I see any indication that any of the other 'Standards' improved on this value. Therefore, a TPS 2 limit seems entirely reasonable.

[beagle]

Using incendiary or insulting language is probably not the most effective tactic when trying to make your point on this forum.

wlbjork, I would probably have agreed with paragraph 2 of the first post until I read your response, and you have convinced me that I was wrong. i had thought about the West Virginia at Pearl Harbor. Being hit by 6 or 7 torpedoes in one attack would probably have sunk any battleship afloat in 1941, with the probable exception of Yamato, then fitting out. However its list was so slow that counterflooding easily prevented capsizing. I would think the Tennessees and Marylands could merit a TP2, but how could you differentiate them from the other standard type battleships in RTW3? 

[wlbjork]

One of the torpedoes hit aft, disabling the rudder, at least three hit below the belt armor, and at least one hit the belt, damaging seven armor plates. These torpedoes opened two large holes in the hull, from frames 43 to 52 and from 62 to 97; at least one torpedo passed through the holes after the ship began to list and exploded on the second armor deck.

I'd be surprised if such damage resulted in 'slow flooding'.

However, as you say, they managed to counterflood sufficiently to prevent capsizing and bring her down on an even keel. On the other hand, harbours are supposed to be shallow so that ships can be recovered relatively easily should they sink before repairs can be effected - and the depth of water under USS West Virginia was slightly lower than the height of the freeboard (as can be seen by photographs showing about a foot or so of freeboard remaining after the sinking).

[beagle]

Yeah, that "so slow" was my own invention, should have just stuck to facts and not try to explain something I know little about.

[tankaxe]

Feb 15, 2024 14:58:31 GMT -6 wlbjork said:

The Pennsylvania-class have a 3" torpedo protection bulkhead, rated to withstand 300lbs (140kg) of TNT - or roughly the power of a British 18" torpedo of WW1.

That very much seems like TPS 1 to me.

Nor can I see any indication that any of the other 'Standards' improved on this value. Therefore, a TPS 2 limit seems entirely reasonable.

Apologies for the language, consequence of other forums I go to.

Anyways, the TPS 2 limit is still too strict, because something like the 1920s South Dakotas would not be possible thanks to the 18 knot limit. And I highly doubt that the Americans would use old torpedo protection technology of their first super dreadnoughts for their next generation design.

The New Mexicos and newer standards did include more extensive torpedo protection compared to their older sisters. Last I checked they did not go 18 knots just to have triples and evolutionary TPS.

Because of the harsh limit the player cannot build these designs and will continue to not be able to do so until the 1930s. Which is waaay to late in the game.

[akd]

Haven't dug into this further, but I see a potential larger problem with this restriction: either the AI is totalling ignoring it, or the AI is consistently building large capital ships without torpedo protection. Year is 1917 and I am still under the restriction no triples in A/Y with B/X turrets on the ship for greater than 18kn with TPS 1 and greater than 23kn with TPS 0. The vast majority of other nations' designs would seem to have combinations of speed and triple turrets that suggests either they are ignoring the restriction or are consistently building ships without torpedo protection. Maybe I'm way ahead of the AI with torpedo protection (I have TPS 2 unlocked), but seems odd.

[TheOtherPoster]

I think you could check the ship's speed and TPS in the save file.

Before the latest updates, it was possible to check if there were triple turrets in A or Y positions by just checking the ship's class file. But the NWS team made changes to the saves system and we don't have access to those files anymore. Our loss. I guess you could find that checking the ship's picture...

[gap]

Mar 2, 2024 5:17:31 GMT -6 TheOtherPoster said:

I think you could check the ship's speed and TPS in the save file.

Before the latest updates, it was possible to check if there were triple turrets in A or Y positions by just checking the ship's class file. But the NWS team made changes to the saves system and we don't have access to those files anymore. Our loss. I guess you could find that checking the ship's picture...

We still have access to those files, though their settings are not as straightforward as they used to be.

[TheOtherPoster]

Is that so? Maybe you could tell me where I can find them? In this very moment I have a CA I cannot rebuild because the AI has given it a protected cruiser armour scheme making it an illegal design, and I cannot change anything.

If I could get to the design file for that ship I would need only to amend the line armourcheme=0 to armourscheme=2
Thanks

[akd]

Dug into the new save file to find the ship, and it does appear that the AI nations are cheating around this restriction somehow:



Ship317Name=Princess Royal

Ship317Classname=Princess Royal

Ship317EnemyClassName=Princess Royal

Ship317ShipType=BC

Ship317Displacement=28900

Ship317CrewQuality=3

Ship317TimeToRefit=0

Ship317InPlay=1

Ship317ObsoleteDate=9677

Ship317Reinforcement=0

Ship317AccomodationCramped=0

Ship317ColonialService=0

Ship317CLAA=0

Ship317TPS=1

Error I receive attempting this speed, TPS and turret combo on a BC:



Not sure if the UK is many years ahead in some specific research tech that removes this restriction, or if it is just gated by the year? Here is the UK's research levels (edit removed, as code embed here doesn't have a collapsed window. Can post if it illuminates the issue further):

[tendravina]

Mar 2, 2024 11:02:21 GMT -6 akd said:

Dug into the new save file to find the ship, and it does appear that the AI nations are cheating around this restriction somehow:

View Attachment

Ship317Name=Princess Royal

Ship317Classname=Princess Royal

Ship317EnemyClassName=Princess Royal

Ship317ShipType=BC

Ship317Displacement=28900

Ship317CrewQuality=3

Ship317TimeToRefit=0

Ship317InPlay=1

Ship317ObsoleteDate=9677

Ship317Reinforcement=0

Ship317AccomodationCramped=0

Ship317ColonialService=0

Ship317CLAA=0

Ship317TPS=1

Error I receive attempting this speed, TPS and turret combo on a BC:

View Attachment

Not sure if the UK is many years ahead in some specific research tech that removes this restriction, or if it is just gated by the year? Here is the UK's research levels (edit removed, as code embed here doesn't have a collapsed window. Can post if it illuminates the issue further):

Might be, but when I checked our 90 percent research speed Russia game, we had this TPS 1 tech for a long time. In all honesty you might be behind instead of the AI being ahead, and I think one way you can check is by trying to see if you can build in British yards.

[akd]

Mar 2, 2024 16:46:53 GMT -6 tendravina said:

Mar 2, 2024 11:02:21 GMT -6 akd said:

Dug into the new save file to find the ship, and it does appear that the AI nations are cheating around this restriction somehow:

Might be, but when I checked our 90 percent research speed Russia game, we had this TPS 1 tech for a long time. In all honesty you might be behind instead of the AI being ahead, and I think one way you can check is by trying to see if you can build in British yards.

Both UK and me (USA) are at TPS 2, but that's not really the point. It's the speed, triple turret A with B / Y with X, plus TPS restriction that the AI nation design seems to have ignored. If I try to build a ship like the Princess Royal above (with TPS 1) in a British yard, it also says the design is illegal due to the restriction "Hull is too narrow for speed > 23 kt and triple/quad turrets in A or Y positions and TPS more than 0" so I don't think they have tech unlocked that removes the restriction.

[gap]

Mar 2, 2024 10:19:27 GMT -6 TheOtherPoster said:

Is that so? Maybe you could tell me where I can find them? In this very moment I have a CA I cannot rebuild because the AI has given it a protected cruiser armour scheme making it an illegal design, and I cannot change anything.

If I could get to the design file for that ship I would need only to amend the line armourcheme=0 to armourscheme=2
Thanks

Sure, the new save game location is clearly stated in the latest version's release notes:

 "C:\users\<Your Username>\Documents\My Games\Rule the Waves 3"

Unlike previous versions of the game, now all the ship designs of each nation are stored in one file. The files are named DesignFiles0.des to DesignFiles8.des.

[TheOtherPoster]

What do you use to open those files?
If I use notepad I get this:

DesignFiles1.des (63.7 KB)


Yes, as I understand, those files should include all ships for a given game. In earlier versions each ship had a separate file for herself inside a game folder. 

For example, Naniwa

Naniwa.18d (18.27 KB)


Well, the changes are fine with me... as long as I can access the same information as before.


Naniwa, as any other ship file, would have the line

ArmorScheme=

So if the AI gives my CA a protected cruiser armour scheme, making impossible for me to make any upgrade to the ship, at least I could go to that file and amend the line manually, instead of just closing the program in frustration.