|
Post by ddg on Jul 23, 2016 0:17:33 GMT -6
Thank you, bcoopactual. I have now done so. A funny thing I noticed during transcription: In 1900 and 1904, 13" and 14" guns have shorter maximum ranges than 12" of the same quality. I've attempted to arrange the values to make comparing caliber-qualities easy enough at a glance.
jwsmith26, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I would certainly like to include national accuracy, but as you say, the brute force method may take some time. I have provisionally added France at 10 (do you know if this was constant through the course of your game?) If you (or anyone else) happen to make note of this value for the various nations, please feel free to leave a comment on my spreadsheet, send me an email at the address on which I have hosted it, or post in this forum (it's small enough that I'm able to follow every thread, so take your choice of what's most appropriate). I did take a look at your accuracy modifiers data, but I'm not quite sure how I can put it to use, if at all, yet. I do always appreciate people trying to understand the game mechanics.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Jul 23, 2016 0:42:07 GMT -6
Thank you, bcoopactual. I have now done so. A funny thing I noticed during transcription: In 1900 and 1904, 13" and 14" guns have shorter maximum ranges than 12" of the same quality. I've attempted to arrange the values to make comparing caliber-qualities easy enough at a glance. I saw that too. My only idea was whether anybody actually started the game with 13in guns or greater with at least -1 quality. If not then the formula the designers used to determine the numbers might be thrown off because those guns are outside the expected range for those years. Or it could be historically accurate for all I know. I'm at work so I can't check the BNat file but I didn't think much of it because most if not all nations don't have access to those guns in that time frame anyway. [Edit - Both France and GB have 13 in guns at start but they are -2 quality so no nation starts with 13 in, -1 quality or better guns.] I'm looking forward to taking a look at your work. Let me know if you want more year's data. Now that I have the format down and I don't have to start over because I didn't realize at first that FC tech affected max range, it takes about a half-hour or so to put the data together for one year.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Jul 23, 2016 0:50:29 GMT -6
ddg, there's another possible national characteristic that you might want to add to the "Nations" section of your information sheet at some point. It appears that there is a national rating for accuracy that shows up as a hit modifier. For instance, when I examined the hit modifiers for France I saw this repeatedly: Nation accuracy: 10. I haven't done any further research on this but the brute force way of determining the values would probably require getting into a battle as each nation to determine the values for each nation, unless there is a section in one of the data files that lists these values. I suppose it's possible that this value is not fixed; it might change over time. Is the nation accuracy based on gunnery training or is the gunnery traning bonus listed seperately?
|
|
|
Post by trenton59 on Jul 23, 2016 0:59:50 GMT -6
ddg, there's another possible national characteristic that you might want to add to the "Nations" section of your information sheet at some point. It appears that there is a national rating for accuracy that shows up as a hit modifier. For instance, when I examined the hit modifiers for France I saw this repeatedly: Nation accuracy: 10. I haven't done any further research on this but the brute force way of determining the values would probably require getting into a battle as each nation to determine the values for each nation, unless there is a section in one of the data files that lists these values. I suppose it's possible that this value is not fixed; it might change over time. Is the nation accuracy based on gunnery training or is the gunnery traning bonus listed seperately? I think the bonus listed is the training bonus.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Jul 23, 2016 8:11:51 GMT -6
ddg , off topic but I notice on your technology page the Hull Construction Techs, specifically Basic Weight Control has a typo in the last two columns that was in the earlier versions of the game. The 203 should be in column G (it's the Tech number) and an 8 should be in column F. You can verify this in the ResearchAreas file just to double check me. I like the gun pages. One thing to consider is to include the actual Fire Control, AP and Explosive tech levels completed with regards to the numbers in addition to the note. That data is at the top of my pages. That way if they are looking at different numbers in game to what the page has listed it they can see how many tech levels away they are. Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Jul 23, 2016 12:16:03 GMT -6
Is the nation accuracy based on gunnery training or is the gunnery traning bonus listed seperately? I think the bonus listed is the training bonus. Well, I suppose that's possible; after all, the reason for each hit modifier can only be derived by the title given to the modifier in the hit modifier list. However, the "Nation Accuracy" value did not change, regardless of which ship was examined and there was another hit modifier for each ship that was listed as "Crew Quality" and this value did change based on the training level and experience of each ship. Here are a couple of examples: Target: B Conte di Cavour-class Range: 5000 yards Basic hit chance: 10.10 Crew quality: 10Target aspect: -20 Fire control: 0 (Central firing (2 of 2)) Tech level: -20 Nation accuracy: 10Ranging: -50 3 ships firing at same target: -30 Under fire: -20 Final hit chance: 2.85 Target: DD Zeffiro-class Range: 5800 yards Basic hit chance: 3.02 Crew quality: 0Target size: -30 Fire control: -20 (Local only) Tech level: -20 Nation accuracy: 10Ranging: -30 1 ships fouling the range: -20 Target turning: -30 Smoke interference: -30 DD firing: -60 Final hit chance: 0.22
|
|
|
Post by ddg on Jul 23, 2016 15:17:59 GMT -6
ddg , off topic but I notice on your technology page the Hull Construction Techs, specifically Basic Weight Control has a typo in the last two columns that was in the earlier versions of the game. The 203 should be in column G (it's the Tech number) and an 8 should be in column F. You can verify this in the ResearchAreas file just to double check me. I like the gun pages. One thing to consider is to include the actual Fire Control, AP and Explosive tech levels completed with regards to the numbers in addition to the note. That data is at the top of my pages. That way if they are looking at different numbers in game to what the page has listed it they can see how many tech levels away they are. Just a thought. Thanks for pointing this out. I had always thought that seemed like an error of some sort. If you happen to know what the other values in columns D-G are, or exactly what the date means, I'd love to know that, too. A good point about specifying the exact techs, too. I can add those without too much clutter. jwsmith26, were you training for Gunnery during that battle? I believe that, and not Crew Quality, is what the others are referring to.
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Jul 23, 2016 17:05:01 GMT -6
jwsmith26 , were you training for Gunnery during that battle? I believe that, and not Crew Quality, is what the others are referring to. I'm almost always training in Gunnery, so I almost certainly was prior to this battle. I would think that training in Gunnery would be represented by Crew Quality in the hit modifiers list, I mean you're training the crew, right? If Crew Quality doesn't represent the improvements derived from training (as well as from battle) then what might it represent?
|
|
|
Post by ddg on Jul 23, 2016 17:28:48 GMT -6
I would assume Crew Quality represents only the Poor-Fair-Good-Elite spectrum. From a programming standpoint, it doesn't make sense to me to combine multiple different values into a single Crew Quality variable (since Gunnery training etc don't simply alter crews from Good to Elite or what have you) only to then combine that variable with a number of others (target speed, target aspect, range fouling, etc) immediately after. That is, there's no reason to have [(training+experience)+speed+aspect+fouling+...] instead of [training+experience+speed+aspect+fouling+...]. Why silo twice when once will work just as well?
Specialized training is a facet of accuracy that can vary between nations and thus not implausible to describe as "Nation accuracy," even if it is a bit odd.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Jul 23, 2016 18:12:34 GMT -6
ddg , off topic but I notice on your technology page the Hull Construction Techs, specifically Basic Weight Control has a typo in the last two columns that was in the earlier versions of the game. The 203 should be in column G (it's the Tech number) and an 8 should be in column F. You can verify this in the ResearchAreas file just to double check me. I like the gun pages. One thing to consider is to include the actual Fire Control, AP and Explosive tech levels completed with regards to the numbers in addition to the note. That data is at the top of my pages. That way if they are looking at different numbers in game to what the page has listed it they can see how many tech levels away they are. Just a thought. Thanks for pointing this out. I had always thought that seemed like an error of some sort. If you happen to know what the other values in columns D-G are, or exactly what the date means, I'd love to know that, too. A good point about specifying the exact techs, too. I can add those without too much clutter. jwsmith26 , were you training for Gunnery during that battle? I believe that, and not Crew Quality, is what the others are referring to. The only column I'm sure of it's purpose is 'G'. It's the tech number that the game uses to assign bonus techs to nations. i.e. in the BNat file for the US it lists BTL=73 and BTL=75. 73 and 75 are superimposed X and B turrets. I realize that each tech doesn't have a unique number, a bunch have 12, some have 999 and so on so I have no idea what would happen if someone modded the game and assigned those numbers. Might be a symptom of transferring files from SAI to RTW. I don't know what D,E,F do. The techs date appears to be the nominal year it was invented and researching earlier than that year seems to affect how many research points are accumulated each turn. For example, after 600 ton DD, which you normally complete sometime in 1901, the next tech 700 ton DD's is a 1906 tech. The points you accumulate per turn in Light Forces drops to a trickle (without changing budget percentage or priority) compared to when you were researching 600 tons until you get much closer to 1906. The first ASW tech is a 1907 tech. You don't even start accumulating points at all in ASW for several years until you get closer to 1907. So there is a limit to how much you can tech rush any particular category.
|
|
|
Post by ddg on Jul 23, 2016 20:13:37 GMT -6
I've wondered if Column F (values ranging from 3 to 22) was related to the amount of research funding the tech should (on average) require in total. I suppose I could test for a correlation by noting total yearly research budgets versus discovery dates, but that sounds like a lot of work and I'm not remotely ready to commit to doing that again. Column E (values ranging from 20 to 100 in increments of 10) makes me think percentages, but I have no rationale for that. Column D (Y/N) I assume is yes or no, but again, I have no explanation for what that might mean.
|
|
|
Post by flyingtoaster on Jul 24, 2016 9:32:11 GMT -6
Right, I'm back home, and have a chance to look at the data.
I'll basically list some historical guns and data from them found in Friedman. Note that Friedman generally doesn't include penetration data, presumably because it's so dependent on shell design, and also not all guns were tested for penetration.
BRITISH GUNS:
16"/45 - 1921 - max range 38,400 yrds (35204m) @ 40° This compares to 33,726 for TL 1 in the 1922 tab, so pretty close. I imagine 40° is increased elevation.
15"/42 - 1913 (the QE gun) - max range 24,423y @ 20° or 30,227y @ 30° This compares to 24800m for quality 0, so about the same without increased elevation.
13.5"/45 (Orion, KGV, Iron Duke, etc.) - max range 23,280y @ 20° This compares to 21,650m for a Q0 13" gun in 1914.
12"/45 Mk.X (the Dreadnought gun) - max range 18,850y @ 13.5° with 4crh shell This compares to 14,440m for a Q0 12" gun in 1904, or 15,580m for Q1. The Q1 range is close to the 2crh range of 16,450y.
9.2"/46.7 Mk.X (King Edward VII, Black Prince, etc.) - max range 15,500y @ 30° with 2crh or 25,700y with 4crh This is much further than the 10,062 for a Q0 9" in 1900, but this is where fire control comes in. Interestingliy the Mk.XI was 'rated at 16,200 yards range.'
4.7"/40 'the standard RN 4.7in gun in 1914' - max range 9,900y @ 20° This compares to a Q0 5" in the 1914 sheet having a max range of 11,150m, and a Q0 4" with 10,100.
From this fairly small sample it looks pretty accurate for larger guns, especially later on. Smaller guns are a bit stranger, and earlier guns, seem a bit off, but that could at least partly be due to fire control issues.
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Jul 24, 2016 13:01:10 GMT -6
I would assume Crew Quality represents only the Poor-Fair-Good-Elite spectrum. From a programming standpoint, it doesn't make sense to me to combine multiple different values into a single Crew Quality variable (since Gunnery training etc don't simply alter crews from Good to Elite or what have you) only to then combine that variable with a number of others (target speed, target aspect, range fouling, etc) immediately after. That is, there's no reason to have [(training+experience)+speed+aspect+fouling+...] instead of [training+experience+speed+aspect+fouling+...]. Why silo twice when once will work just as well? Specialized training is a facet of accuracy that can vary between nations and thus not implausible to describe as "Nation accuracy," even if it is a bit odd. I have examined hit modifiers in 3 other games with different nations involved. The "Nation Accuracy" modifier does appear to represent gunnery training. In the 3 cases where the nation had trained in gunnery (they each had GunneryTraining=1 in the *.bcs file) the Nation Accuracy value of 10 was present in the Hit Modifiers list. In the one case where the nation had not trained in gunnery, no Nation Accuracy modifier was listed (presumably its value is zero so no need to list it). So now I am tying to figure out the relationship between training and Crew Quality. It seems pretty clear that gunnery training will activate the Nation Accuracy modifier but it seems that training also affects Crew Quality. There seems to be a system that levels out Crew Quality to Good. Elite crews will eventually fall back to Good level (though training seems to delay this) while Fair crews will eventually improve to Good (though training seems to accelerate this process). In my experience, if no training is undertaken and no battles fought, every Active Fleet ship will eventually end up at Good crew quality. It seems that Crew Quality may be a cumulative value that is assigned based on all three training areas, as well as recent battle experience. This seems counter to what ddg has suggested in the quote above, that it doesn't make sense to combine these various values into one, when from a programming standpoint it's easier to just use the individual values. But I suspect that Crew Quality is exactly that, a compilation of the effects of the various types of training as well as battle experience, combined into a single overall rating with the explicit purpose of providing the end user with a general impression of each ship's level of overall effectiveness. A "Good" crew will get a bump in gunnery not necessarily because they've trained specifically in being more accurate but because their overall experience has made the entire crew more efficient, your loaders are better at their jobs, rammers know how to get it done quickly, your command staff are better at determining best speeds and angles of attack, everyone is just faster and more comfortable with their jobs. So your entire crew is better and more efficient, but you'll still get an additional bump to hit rate if you've specifically trained in gunnery.
|
|