Tonnage cap of 52k

[garrisonchisholm]

So, what is the reason for the tonnage cap?  I can deduce it must be a game balance issue, and in truth you really shouldn't need more than 52,000 tons to accomplish your ends, but it feels very artificial.

If the need is to limit the AI's access to super-heavy ships, then whatever the tonnage logic for each class designed is there could just be 2 lines of code to randomize the chance of them using a Supermax tonnage design, and make it small- Losing Quantity Battle? [# of (BB + BC) x2 <  potential enemies]  Random % >99 ?   Build it.   This would ensure that AI would only build super heavy ships if they were far behind in the quantity race, and then only in 1 of 100 classes decided upon.  A human player would only see it once every 2 or 3 games, and only if they play past 1925.

If the need is to limit the Player, then included a Random Event that will allow Super-heavy designs if some opportunity cost suitable to the designers is paid.

Just curious on the logic here.  I think it would be HIGH fun to receive a press-clipping warning about X Nations Super-battleship, and the thrill (and fear!) of hunting it down.  And God Forbid it be released as a raider!  (Extreme fun hunting That down!)

[brucesim2003]

The formulae for the required engine power starts breaking down at ultra high tonnages. Early versions of the game had a much higher (or none at all?) limitation which did really weird things to engine tonnage.

[garrisonchisholm]

Hmmm. Well, that would be the answer then, though maybe shifting to an alternate, high-tonnage formula for such ships might be a more appealing option. Okie-doke. I am grateful for what we have, I'll not quibble.

[thatzenoguy]

Likely RTW2 will allow for ships up to 72 kilotons.

Presumably that formula could be used in RTW1 too.

[jwsmith26]

I think it would be quite interesting to have the AI build some 52k+ ton behemoths. I doubt I'd go that route with my own ships (mine typically top out at less than 40k tons) but it would be fascinating to see what the AI came up with and to meet them in a battle.

[thatzenoguy]

I always make max size ships, they are simply the only things capable of taking long range 16 inch+ hits without exploding everywhere.

[ccip]

I think the people who rely on massive tonnage ships and maxed-out tech level might be playing the game a bit "wrong" - not wrong as in they should follow some kind of rule, wrong as in you're pushing it way beyond what it was ever designed for. It was never designed to be played much past 1925. Once you go there, you're playing at your own risk - can't expect it to always make sense. The limit is there only as a courtesy to prevent you from breaking your own save games, really. Not a feature so much as a safety switch.

[director]

I don't usually push the tonnage envelope on the middle part of the game. At first, yes - every ton counts - until I get my docks up to, say, 30,000 ton size. Then I let the docks keep growing and concentrate on how to get an efficient ship out of 30-40,000 tons. That gives me the best chance to build a ship with reasonable firepower, protection and adequate speed, while building enough of them to be useful. Only toward the end do I start pushing into the 48-52k range.

[thatzenoguy]

Oct 1, 2016 14:08:29 GMT -6 ccip said:

I think the people who rely on massive tonnage ships and maxed-out tech level might be playing the game a bit "wrong" - not wrong as in they should follow some kind of rule, wrong as in you're pushing it way beyond what it was ever designed for. It was never designed to be played much past 1925. Once you go there, you're playing at your own risk - can't expect it to always make sense. The limit is there only as a courtesy to prevent you from breaking your own save games, really. Not a feature so much as a safety switch.

I can sometimes get 52 kiloton ships by 1919... XD

[tuna]

Note that 51900 is greatly superior to 52k, because you get lower engine weight for same speed and less armor for same thickness. Probably a bug.

I like building max size ships because armor is cheap, compared to other things you put on ships, so if you build a ship like you'd build a 30k ship, and then just add 20k tons of armor, it's much more survivable while not being all that much more expensive.

[HolyDragoon]

Engine weight per ship weight is probably organized by thresholds. Would explain 52k having one value, while 51,9 having a lower one, despite the 100kg diff that shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Personally, I tend to push sizes up, especially on stuff like CLs. A 8k ton can carry a lot of gun and keep a decent speed, and they usually end up spending most of the game in service with the occasional upgrade.

[theexecuter]

Oct 1, 2016 22:42:26 GMT -6 thatzenoguy said:

Oct 1, 2016 14:08:29 GMT -6 ccip said:

I think the people who rely on massive tonnage ships and maxed-out tech level might be playing the game a bit "wrong" - not wrong as in they should follow some kind of rule, wrong as in you're pushing it way beyond what it was ever designed for. It was never designed to be played much past 1925. Once you go there, you're playing at your own risk - can't expect it to always make sense. The limit is there only as a courtesy to prevent you from breaking your own save games, really. Not a feature so much as a safety switch.

I can sometimes get 52 kiloton ships by 1919... XD

In my current USA game, I'm building 52k ton monsters in 1914...

[srndacful]

Just out of curiosity: has anyone here read "Supremacy" by Arthur C. Clarke? 
Sci-Fi, I know, but (like most good Fiction) it has a tendency of making you think by divorcing emotional from factual parts of history.

Meanwhile, as an offering to the thread gods, and for the record: 
I have been building 52 ktonne ships at the beginning, but I find that smaller ships (with proper handling & tactics) get to kick the stuffing out of the enemy as well as big ones - with the added bonus that there's usually more of them to go around. 

So, most of my BB's are usually up to about 39 ktonnes (letting me build 4 for the price of 3) - while my BC's go up to about 42 ktonnes (giving me 5 for the price of 4) since they get to be more active and less armored, and thus need all the edge they can get. 

[chz]

For BCs, quantity trumps quality - they can always run away.

But unless you're getting 2 for the price of 1, cut-rate BBs are rarely worth it because they melt in the face of superior firepower and can't get away.

[archelaos]

I have noticed that late in game AI starts to build actual fast BBs, with powerful guns (8-10x16in) and 26-27kts. How do you react to it?
I'm designing a very late game BB for my AH game, and I'm not sure if it should try to keep up with those designs... It's 1930 and almost all techs are already researched.