And then THIS happened...

[garrisonchisholm]

So, I was privately crowing (can you crow to only 2 people?) about my greatest victory, & so I feel a certain humility and dark humor demands I disclose publicly my greatest defeat.

It was late, 1949, and the Kriegsmarine was content.  Expanded colonies in East Africa, Southeast and Northeast Asia, and a career with few blemishes.  6 fully modern 52ktn battleships and a pair of BC's of like vintage, with a very capable "mittlere generation" of decent potency and near identical durability.  The last war with the Czar (no revolution) had ended without great result, and so the final 18 months before GrossAdmiral Gneisenau's retirement looked to pass quietly.  But suddenly, almost irrationally, a sequence of unlikely international events brought Germany to war with the United Kingdom.  An unexpected battle was swiftly joined just West-south-west of Horn's Reef.

Germany had her most modern battleship, Pommern, and 2 of the middle generation present with ample escorts at sea for this response to a Brit coastal raid, as well as her most modern BC, Mackensen, also with ample escort.  Our destroyers I was most proud of, as they were virtually light cruisers, mounting 10x 6" guns each.  Course was SW after a pair of light cruisers, which as expected proved to be the scouts for the English fleet.  Long story short, it was swiftly discovered that we were maneuvering against two squadrons each more than our match.  The 11 British capital ships mounted at least 50 15" & 16" weapons.

For a while we tried to maneuver between the pincers, and favor one side to destroy it, but the shooting would get too hot and we would break away only to reach the guns of the other.  Finally it was determined that we must break through to survive, as falling back to the east-north-east would not save us.  At full speed we turned for the covering guns of Helgoland.

As it was only 3 of the 4 made the Isle, as Hessen broke away and fled north with heavy damage and could not be helped, being eventually caught by the battleship squadron.  The escorts began flocking to the anchorage, and the Captain asked permission to put in.  It would be a sour defeat though, being able to thus far claim not a single English ship.  Darkness had just fallen, so the decision was made to press on at best speed (8 knots) for Wilhemshaven, for the British BC's would be exposed to the batteries of Helgoland if they followed, and in deep darkness our destroyer advantage might tell with many close range broadsides and torpedoes.  It may yet be possible to snatch a draw or marginal victory from this defeat.

However!  What the GrossAdmiral didn't count on was Regulation 141A4, which stipulates, "if enemy capital ships are at large in the Bight, flee to the cover of the Helgoland anchorage and do NOT put to sea on pain of Death!"  ...the 3 surviving capital ships were whittled away by the seemingly fearless Brit BC's, as they advanced alone, at an ever decreasing speed, bereft of escort, their foes arcing away into the darkness, providing just enough time to hope that succor had at last arrived, and then appearing again as a shadow of doom to visit destruction on the next in line.

Pommern sank well South of the German coastline, mere kilometers from her berth at Wilhemshaven.

*filed under Things I Will Not Soon Forget...*

[oldpop2000]

Oct 4, 2016 21:40:05 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

So, I was privately crowing (can you crow to only 2 people?) about my greatest victory, & so I feel a certain humility and dark humor demands I disclose publicly my greatest defeat.

It was late, 1949, and the Kriegsmarine was content.  Expanded colonies in East Africa, Southeast and Northeast Asia, and a career with few blemishes.  6 fully modern 52ktn battleships and a pair of BC's of like vintage, with a very capable "mittlere generation" of decent potency and near identical durability.  The last war with the Czar (no revolution) had ended without great result, and so the final 18 months before GrossAdmiral Gneisenau's retirement looked to pass quietly.  But suddenly, almost irrationally, a sequence of unlikely international events brought Germany to war with the United Kingdom.  An unexpected battle was swiftly joined just West-south-west of Horn's Reef.

Germany had her most modern battleship, Pommern, and 2 of the middle generation present with ample escorts at sea for this response to a Brit coastal raid, as well as her most modern BC, Mackensen, also with ample escort.  Our destroyers I was most proud of, as they were virtually light cruisers, mounting 10x 6" guns each.  Course was SW after a pair of light cruisers, which as expected proved to be the scouts for the English fleet.  Long story short, it was swiftly discovered that we were maneuvering against two squadrons each more than our match.  The 11 British capital ships mounted at least 50 15" & 16" weapons.

For a while we tried to maneuver between the pincers, and favor one side to destroy it, but the shooting would get too hot and we would break away only to reach the guns of the other.  Finally it was determined that we must break through to survive, as falling back to the east-north-east would not save us.  At full speed we turned for the covering guns of Helgoland.

As it was only 3 of the 4 made the Isle, as Hessen broke away and fled north with heavy damage and could not be helped, being eventually caught by the battleship squadron.  The escorts began flocking to the anchorage, and the Captain asked permission to put in.  It would be a sour defeat though, being able to thus far claim not a single English ship.  Darkness had just fallen, so the decision was made to press on at best speed (8 knots) for Wilhemshaven, for the British BC's would be exposed to the batteries of Helgoland if they followed, and in deep darkness our destroyer advantage might tell with many close range broadsides and torpedoes.  It may yet be possible to snatch a draw or marginal victory from this defeat.

However!  What the GrossAdmiral didn't count on was Regulation 141A4, which stipulates, "if enemy capital ships are at large in the Bight, flee to the cover of the Helgoland anchorage and do NOT put to sea on pain of Death!"  ...the 3 surviving capital ships were whittled away by the seemingly fearless Brit BC's, as they advanced alone, at an ever decreasing speed, bereft of escort, their foes arcing away into the darkness, providing just enough time to hope that succor had at last arrived, and then appearing again as a shadow of doom to visit destruction on the next in line.

Pommern sank well South of the German coastline, mere kilometers from her berth at Wilhemshaven.

*filed under Things I Will Not Soon Forget...*

Ah Ha! thou hath forgotten the first rule of combat. He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day. However, now that you have cleansed your soul of the haunting battle, you shall now be forgiven remembering that pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before the fall.

[srndacful]

Oct 4, 2016 21:55:28 GMT -6 oldpop2000 said:

Ah Ha! thou hath forgotten the first rule of combat. He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day. However, now that you have cleansed your soul of the haunting battle, you shall now be forgiven remembering that pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before the fall.

That's in case running away is an option, of course. 
Sometimes, though, you get the '**** out of luck' hand, and can only try to lose as little as possible.
'And then THIS happened' in those kinds of situations is very satisfying.

I've just (i.e. half an hour ago) been in one of those: 
Big Bad Evil Gods of Dice threw my small & innocent (misguided, really) South American Union into a war against an outraged & misinformed (naw, man - there's no dictatorship here - everyone's happy, see? What? Naw, man, they ain't doin' drugs, that's ... uh ... second-hand sugar, yeah) USA in December of 1925.
Battlefleets in Carribean: 10 BB's & 5 BC's (my entire battlefleet) vs. 20 BB's & 20 BC's (about 1/2 of the entire US battlefleet)
Right off the bat, I get a battleship ambush: apparently some of my boats have been caught smuggli ... uh, doing reconnaisance off Miami Beach, yeah. 
Main Battleship section: 2 BB's: 15000 tonne, 20 knot, 6* 11" Dreadnoughts (hats off, and no laughing, people - these Oldsters sank a Frog Battleship 15 years prior - also my first Dreadnoughts built)
Independent detached squadron under main Battle Section: 2 BC's: 24000 & 27000 tonnes, 28 knot, 6 & 8* 12" guns
Scouting section of the fleet: 2 BC's: 20000 tonnes, 27 knots, 6* 11" guns (my first Battlecruisers - no major successes though, so feel free to laugh your ass off)

The battle starts with me going NW towards Miami, with both of my BC divisions right next to one another, and BB's close behind, in broad daylight, on a nice sunny day, with 3 or 4 hours 'till dark, with only one, solitary, CL as scout - for the Battleships. So, basically, right behind my BC's. 
Right off the bat, my Independent detached squadron spots ships coming out of Miami (naturally) - so I can finally give them orders to rejoin the BB's - who are currently ordered to do a 180 (head SE) & Full Steam ahead. Scouting half of the fleet also gets Flank Speed, but breaks away SW.
Alas, the ships spotted are the 3 US BC's (36 to 42 ktonnes, 27 knots & 10 to 15 14 to 16" guns) coming from Miami. 
Independent detached squadron is closer, so they target it first. I order Destroyers forward to cover the retreat, but one of my BC's crippled before they arrive & slow down the US BC's. 
Scouting section has just turned to new heading when another 3 US BC's (similar to above) come in sight due W. I quickly turn it to SE as well & a running battle begins. Well, battle in name only, really. More like a slaughter tbqh - at this point all the reports are from several of my ships being hit each minute, and, every once in a while, one of the enemy's. 
DD screen covering the retreat loses 3, holds them off a bit, and then heads back to BB's (& last BC that managed to re-attach) - but not before spotting 4 US BB's (30 to 40 ktonnes, 8 to 15 14 to 16" guns) coming in from Miami, as well. 

So, no ****, there I was, running SE @ 20 knots with overheating bearings, 2 BC's sinking, 2 more full of holes, out-of-torpedoes DD's & 10 p***ed-off 'Murricans baying for my blood - when all of a sudden I see the whole bloodthirsty wolfpack veer to the NE.

I actually sat there staring at that screen for a whole minute not believing my luck, before checking what just happenned:
In one of the more freakish examples of C3I insanity (which is one (if not the) reason I love it so much) - one of my destroyers got too far through the enemy fleet - and out on the other side. Once others started to retreat, it found itself cut off, and tried to get away from the enemy the only way it could (to the NE) - and the entire US fleet chose to follow it, instead of me.

After all my slaughtered AH BC's - finally, someone got away.
Cheers!

[garrisonchisholm]

Well that's out of the frying pan and- oh, I can dust off these embers & ash ouch-ouch, its still good. :]

[oldpop2000]

Well, it sounds like "Into the valley of death rode the mighty six hundred, cannon to the right of them and cannon to the left of them"....Boldly they rode(In your case, sailed).

Just a suggestion, if you discover opponent light cruisers, beware that they are scouts for a larger fleet. Do a 180 turn and hit the boilers. Its a setup.

[garrisonchisholm]

In my recollection, I was quite surprised when the screening forces refused to leave the grey circle that was Helgoland. They were still extant on the map, just screaming around in an impossibly dense tiny circle at high speed. There must literally be a line written in the game code for light forces to flee to Helgolund if there are enemy capital ships in the Bight. But, ... it served me right anyway I suppose. :]

[garrisonchisholm]

Well, entirely different game & war, but the thread title still applies!

1911, Japan. The long agitated-for war with the USA to take Manila finally occurs. The Prudent Execution of First Strikes (surprise attack) goes wonderfully, a B is sunk. The war progresses, raiders are destroyed, and even an unexpected encounter with the Plan Peach (really unfair to call it Orange) Fleet turns to my advantage, when with only 2 legacy fleet CA's and an island we are able to pinch off a CA that out guns us and destroy it and 3 transports before slipping away as night falls. Everything is going swimmingly.

Then the Prime Minister says that the US has approached us about a cessation of hostilities with no border changes.

I chuckle from behind my desk.

"Ha ha, yes, very amusing. Do you see those VP's down in the corner there? Those say we're kicking their ass. A 4 to one margin. Only the Army's impending silly offensive at god-knows-where can hurt us. America has yet to show the stones to strip the east coast and challenge us. There are reports of protests in the streets every month. No, take your silly proposal back to your silly masters. Manila will be ours within a year. We fight on."

Next day's headline.

"A Peace is successfully concluded with no change of borders."



...now I know how the 1930's pogroms started...

[oldpop2000]

Oct 15, 2016 10:58:56 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Well, entirely different game & war, but the thread title still applies!

1911, Japan. The long agitated-for war with the USA to take Manila finally occurs. The Prudent Execution of First Strikes (surprise attack) goes wonderfully, a B is sunk. The war progresses, raiders are destroyed, and even an unexpected encounter with the Plan Peach (really unfair to call it Orange) Fleet turns to my advantage, when with only 2 legacy fleet CA's and an island we are able to pinch off a CA that out guns us and destroy it and 3 transports before slipping away as night falls. Everything is going swimmingly.

Then the Prime Minister says that the US has approached us about a cessation of hostilities with no border changes.

I chuckle from behind my desk.

"Ha ha, yes, very amusing. Do you see those VP's down in the corner there? Those say we're kicking their ass. A 4 to one margin. Only the Army's impending silly offensive at god-knows-where can hurt us. America has yet to show the stones to strip the east coast and challenge us. There are reports of protests in the streets every month. No, take your silly proposal back to your silly masters. Manila will be ours within a year. We fight on."

Next day's headline.

"A Peace is successfully concluded with no change of borders."



...now I know how the 1930's pogroms started...

Your story reminds me of what Thomas Mann said "War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of Peace". And here endith the lesson.

[archelaos]

I have to admit I just rage quited from a battle.
1908, Italy vs Ottoman fleet battle (2 semi-dread BCs, 2 B, 2CAs, 5CLs and 10-12DDs versus 5 crappy Bs, good CA, and 6-8DDs (and some CLs that did not engaged).

Battle starts with my BCs devastating scouting CA, and then battle lines clash. I'm shelling them for few hours, generally winning despite weather worsening every turn up to 4900 yards. Half way through I raise flotilla attack flag and DDs engage enemy, from position in front of their battle line, abort, attack again, now enemy DDs (who launch torps, but miss) and burning CA. Not much later they lost 2DDs and start to flee, I try to chase, when some random hit slows my Flagship B to 13kts (it was NOT engine room hit, just a single shell perforating BE, D, splinters perforate hull, with almost no actual damage except speed loss). OK, no problem.

I try to chase with BCs, screened by CLs and DDs, for at least as long as flagship visibility lasts. Then my force start to overtake two already damaged DDs. I see torps avoid alert from my CL that is between my BCs and enemy DDs, so I turn it, turn BCs... And my lead BC gets hit. Not bad, 41 floding... I think I can handle it. 2-3 minutes later, when BC is 90deg to initial course, stern to enemy, second hit. This time devastating, over 400 flooding on no TPS ship. No hope. Frustrating.

Then I went through my own DDs, and what I found? NOT A SINGLE TORP LAUNCHED! Not at enemy B. Not at enemy DDs. Not even at that devastated CA, on fire and limping at 10kts. While having serious chances at second and especially third option, being both close and much faster than enemy.

And AI launches perfect and unavoidable salvo the only time it has a chance to do serious damage. From ships listed as having medium damage.

[oldpop2000]

Oct 15, 2016 15:29:25 GMT -6 archelaos said:

I have to admit I just rage quited from a battle.
1908, Italy vs Ottoman fleet battle (2 semi-dread BCs, 2 B, 2CAs, 5CLs and 10-12DDs versus 5 crappy Bs, good CA, and 6-8DDs (and some CLs that did not engaged).

Battle starts with my BCs devastating scouting CA, and then battle lines clash. I'm shelling them for few hours, generally winning despite weather worsening every turn up to 4900 yards. Half way through I raise flotilla attack flag and DDs engage enemy, from position in front of their battle line, abort, attack again, now enemy DDs (who launch torps, but miss) and burning CA. Not much later they lost 2DDs and start to flee, I try to chase, when some random hit slows my Flagship B to 13kts (it was NOT engine room hit, just a single shell perforating BE, D, splinters perforate hull, with almost no actual damage except speed loss). OK, no problem.

I try to chase with BCs, screened by CLs and DDs, for at least as long as flagship visibility lasts. Then my force start to overtake two already damaged DDs. I see torps avoid alert from my CL that is between my BCs and enemy DDs, so I turn it, turn BCs... And my lead BC gets hit. Not bad, 41 floding... I think I can handle it. 2-3 minutes later, when BC is 90deg to initial course, stern to enemy, second hit. This time devastating, over 400 flooding on no TPS ship. No hope. Frustrating.

Then I went through my own DDs, and what I found? NOT A SINGLE TORP LAUNCHED! Not at enemy B. Not at enemy DDs. Not even at that devastated CA, on fire and limping at 10kts. While having serious chances at second and especially third option, being both close and much faster than enemy.

And AI launches perfect and unavoidable salvo the only time it has a chance to do serious damage. From ships listed as having medium damage.

Ah, you've learned a lesson. The AI hears all, sees all and knows all. The only way to consistently beat AI is the act asymmetrically.

[director]

I only attempt a torpedo attack in three circumstances:

1) When finishing a cripple
2) When it is late in the game and I have enough torpedoes to plate the ocean in steel
3) When the battle is going against me and I need the enemy to back off

You may already have done this, but I always do this:

1) Set the flotilla flag
2) Set the DD flot's target to the one I want to hit
3) If all else fails, take over direct command and drive the DDs to almost zero distance from the target, then return to auto

And, yes - the AI will launch a spread while you are steaming in one direction that will hit you when you later change course. How? I dunno. MY captains don't know what a torpedo is for until 1920 or so, that's for sure.

[boomboomf22]

I've had my DDs launch trips right into allied ships in line behind them, while later in same battle they won't launch cause "Friendly is in line of fire". Said ship being 4000 yards beyond max torp range. Sigh

[boomboomf22]

Just lost an old BC because I was pursuing some American CA's as the Russians and it turned into a night action. Now you would think the loss came because I go over aggressive and closed to knife fighting range with them, and usually you would be right, but not this time. Noooo, what happens is I am cruising along at 26kts with a 3 destroyer escort, and I have put 10 tubes on the DD's. Suddenly a american CA looms out of the murk not 1000 yards away, bow on and my DD's fire off all of their torps.... from behind my battle line. The BC (old yes but I only posses 4 due to a naval arms treaty) eats 6 of them, and blows up. To add insult to injury not a single torp strikes it's target and the CA zooms off. I hope DD's won't do this in RtW2 as it is pretty immersion breaking. I highly doubt a DD captain would fire torpedoes into a friendly BC HE IS STEAMING ALONG BESIDE NOT 100 YARDS AWAY!!!!!

[Fredrik W]

Oct 16, 2016 20:42:00 GMT -6 boomboomf22 said:

Just lost an old BC because I was pursuing some American CA's as the Russians and it turned into a night action. Now you would think the loss came because I go over aggressive and closed to knife fighting range with them, and usually you would be right, but not this time. Noooo, what happens is I am cruising along at 26kts with a 3 destroyer escort, and I have put 10 tubes on the DD's. Suddenly a american CA looms out of the murk not 1000 yards away, bow on and my DD's fire off all of their torps.... from behind my battle line. The BC (old yes but I only posses 4 due to a naval arms treaty) eats 6 of them, and blows up. To add insult to injury not a single torp strikes it's target and the CA zooms off. I hope DD's won't do this in RtW2 as it is pretty immersion breaking. I highly doubt a DD captain would fire torpedoes into a friendly BC HE IS STEAMING ALONG BESIDE NOT 100 YARDS AWAY!!!!!

OK, I'll take a look at the avoid friendly ships when firing torps routines when I have the time. Though there were as you all know historical instances of friendly fire, this seems to be a bit too much of that.

[rockmedic109]

Oct 16, 2016 20:42:00 GMT -6 boomboomf22 said:

Just lost an old BC because I was pursuing some American CA's as the Russians and it turned into a night action. Now you would think the loss came because I go over aggressive and closed to knife fighting range with them, and usually you would be right, but not this time. Noooo, what happens is I am cruising along at 26kts with a 3 destroyer escort, and I have put 10 tubes on the DD's. Suddenly a american CA looms out of the murk not 1000 yards away, bow on and my DD's fire off all of their torps.... from behind my battle line. The BC (old yes but I only posses 4 due to a naval arms treaty) eats 6 of them, and blows up. To add insult to injury not a single torp strikes it's target and the CA zooms off. I hope DD's won't do this in RtW2 as it is pretty immersion breaking. I highly doubt a DD captain would fire torpedoes into a friendly BC HE IS STEAMING ALONG BESIDE NOT 100 YARDS AWAY!!!!!

The captain of the BC was seeing the DD skippers' wife?

Would the Torps arm in less than 100 yards?