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Post by bcoopactual on Mar 1, 2019 9:14:59 GMT -6
This for example is a legal design in RTW1. Although I might question the sanity. I can only imagine this ship rolling like a kayak if that gun fired along the broadside.] The devs stated that they allow that design so the Japanese Matsushima-class cruiser could be properly represented. I actually attempted a playthrough with my starting force consisting primarily of them, to rather poor results. However, due to the way that RtW refits work, I could swap out the single 13" gun with a pair of 10" guns. Those worked quite a bit better. I remembered someone had discovered that you could build these things a while back on the forum but couldn't find the post to credit them so I just built an example of my own. The funny thing is the wikipedia entry for the Canet gun those ships were equipped with states they couldn't be fired on the beam because they would roll over. LOL, see. Kayaks. |
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Post by rimbecano on Mar 1, 2019 10:34:24 GMT -6
I can only imagine this ship rolling like a kayak if that gun fired along the broadside. Look at it this way: propeller shafts have always been a weak point for warships. This way, you just bolt a fixed propeller to the stern and let the whole ship rotate. You should be able to make ~30kts and save a bunch on machinery costs/weight. |
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Post by Adseria on Mar 1, 2019 13:52:43 GMT -6
I agree with this wholeheartedly; having designs limited by the class has always felt stupid to me. For example, why shouldn't I be able to make a cruiser with a single large-calibre gun, or a destroyer with no torpedoes? Sure, it wouldn't be historically accurate, but that's the point; historically, nations built plenty of experimental ships (for example, the Russian "Novgorod." Come to think of it, another example is HMS Dreadnought; the only difference is that the experiment was a success). Why shouldn't I be able to build experimental designs, just to see how well they work? The classifications exist so the AI can use the ships properly. A 40,000 ton 21-knot "destroyer" armed with 16 inch guns would be run straight at the enemy fleet and into the teeth of a torpedo barrage by the AI when you ordered Flotilla Attack because that is what the code tells the AI to do with destroyers. [Edit - that's obviously an extreme example but it serves the point. The AI has to be coded for each ship class to perform a certain way for it to make any sense and look like a reasonably realistic response when we observe it during game play. And part of that is the ships need to fall within certain parameters of speed, weapons, etc for that to work. Destroyer programming would be uselessly fatal for a ship that is too slow or does not carry torpedoes and conversely, a similarly sized but slower gunboat or peace cruiser's (both could fall under the MS class catch-all) programming probably doesn't involve making torpedo runs so allowing them on the ship is wasted tonnage. Plus, there is still room for experimentation, particularly in the early game. This for example is a legal design in RTW1. Although I might question the sanity. I can only imagine this ship rolling like a kayak if that gun fired along the broadside.] I know why the limits exist, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it. Besides, there are much easier ways to tell the AI how to use the ship without limiting the design. For instance, as Rimbecano said, why not let the player assign roles to the ship, and have the classification purely as a way to compare fleet strength of different countries? That way, you could, for example, have 2 different light cruisers, on a fast, long range raider, and the other a short range but well armed fleet scout, and the AI would know that it should use the 2 ships differently. You could possibly also use this as a way to tell the battle generation AI what different ships are meant for. That would allow you to have, for example, fast battlecruisers as part of the scouting force, but slower, better armoured ones attached to the main fleet (I realise I just basically described the concept of a fast battleship, but the point stands). |
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Mar 1, 2019 14:14:42 GMT -6
The devs stated that they allow that design so the Japanese Matsushima-class cruiser could be properly represented. I actually attempted a playthrough with my starting force consisting primarily of them, to rather poor results. However, due to the way that RtW refits work, I could swap out the single 13" gun with a pair of 10" guns. Those worked quite a bit better. I remembered someone had discovered that you could build these things a while back on the forum but couldn't find the post to credit them so I just built an example of my own. The funny thing is the wikipedia entry for the Canet gun those ships were equipped with states they couldn't be fired on the beam because they would roll over. LOL, see. Kayaks. I found it amusing to note that those guns could fire 1 round every 30 minutes. There's practical naval design for ya. Good on you, ... famous French guy whose name escapes me... |
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Post by cogsandspigots on Mar 1, 2019 14:31:37 GMT -6
I remembered someone had discovered that you could build these things a while back on the forum but couldn't find the post to credit them so I just built an example of my own. The funny thing is the wikipedia entry for the Canet gun those ships were equipped with states they couldn't be fired on the beam because they would roll over. LOL, see. Kayaks. I found it amusing to note that those guns could fire 1 round every 30 minutes. There's practical naval design for ya. Good on you, ... famous French guy whose name escapes me... Matsushima makes Caio Duilio look like Des Moines. |
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Post by Adseria on Mar 1, 2019 14:52:40 GMT -6
I remembered someone had discovered that you could build these things a while back on the forum but couldn't find the post to credit them so I just built an example of my own. The funny thing is the wikipedia entry for the Canet gun those ships were equipped with states they couldn't be fired on the beam because they would roll over. LOL, see. Kayaks. I found it amusing to note that those guns could fire 1 round every 30 minutes. There's practical naval design for ya. Good on you, ... famous French guy whose name escapes me... "In combat, gunners were able to fire only around one shot per hour due to the time it took to reload."
You misread it? 
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Mar 1, 2019 15:38:00 GMT -6
Huh. I am Inspector Clouseau today... O.o
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Post by bcoopactual on Mar 1, 2019 16:45:41 GMT -6
Besides, there are much easier ways to tell the AI how to use the ship without limiting the design. I look forward to the day when you have released your own game in this genre and I can hand you my money to play it. |
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Mar 1, 2019 17:10:32 GMT -6
I found it amusing to note that those guns could fire 1 round every 30 minutes. There's practical naval design for ya. Good on you, ... famous French guy whose name escapes me... Emil Bertin.
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Post by aeson on Mar 1, 2019 18:39:15 GMT -6
Really depends on whether you want the gun designer or the ship designer, doesn't it? Gustave Canet designed a gun that can't fire more than once an hour in practice; Emil Bertin designed a ship that was essentially built around it. |
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Mar 1, 2019 23:42:48 GMT -6
Really depends on whether you want the gun designer or the ship designer, doesn't it? Gustave Canet designed a gun that can't fire more than once an hour in practice; Emil Bertin designed a ship that was essentially built around it. Quite right. And an interesting parallel to the Space Battleship Yamato and the Wave Motion Gun too. |
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Post by tbr on Mar 2, 2019 3:20:51 GMT -6
Really depends on whether you want the gun designer or the ship designer, doesn't it? Gustave Canet designed a gun that can't fire more than once an hour in practice; Emil Bertin designed a ship that was essentially built around it. Also makes all the "What Ifs" around the battleship Pelayo in the Spanish American War interesting... |
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