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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:31:17 GMT -6
To Grim, As to how publishers survive, there is far more too it then that.. done. My professionalism is more important to me then proving a point on a debate that will never end regardless of what answer I give, no disrespect. I can tell you this..the VAST majority of articles do NOT cover how publishers suffer their most severe losses to piracy. Well.. having people in multiple locations that can help keeps that chances of not having backups pretty slim. I really wasn't interested on the specific $$$ of loses and such, more about how having DRM forced more people to buy their games. And again back to Matrix, I don't care about the specifics, the fact is they haven't introduced any DRM to their products regardless of the situation. Lastly, it does no good for you to keep bringing up this as an argument if all we end up with is "trust us". You totally might be right, but comes out as opinion like the rest of us without supporting detail, regardless of your professional contacts. I'll admit I don't have any specific detail myself besides what I have seen over the years.....piracy existed 35 years ago and still exists today....no scheme will stop it. As for having multiple backups, maybe that helps with one scenario...but what if whatever file/system you use to perform the unlocking becomes unusable? What if 10 years from now you go to unlock it but the process doesn't work for some reason because technology and systems have changed? My point is, not a guarantee regardless of your intentions.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:34:21 GMT -6
I will put this final note down..
Again we are not oblivious to the concerns about the new APS we chose for RTW2 and we will be watching it very closely when we launch. We are setting aside entire personal schedules for the launch and testing the system heavily.
The priority is have some reasonable protection and yet make the installation process as quick as possible. There is no easy answer but PC publishers should not be in a position where they can't try and protect their work by some reasonable means. If this was a perfect world this would not be a problem.. and individual piracy is NOT the only threat out there.
Another option we kicked around is a locked forum for registered owners only with possibly some perks included. If the APS idea does not pan out as we expect we may consider that idea. Either way, no option is 100% perfect.
We do appreciate the feedback.. lets try and all make this work out together. I can fully understand if some want to see how the APS works after launch through the feedback of others. I just ask that we all be constructive.
Thanks.
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:38:30 GMT -6
Another option we kicked around is a locked forum for registered owners only with possibly some perks included. If the APS idea does not pan out as we expect we may consider that idea. Either way, no option is 100% perfect. It's good to discuss options.....can you help me understand this one? I don't believe I have seen this method before. How would a locked forum prevent the game from being pirated? I am being sincere, I just never heard of this before so wasn't sure how the protection would work....maybe it is a good option and should be considered before release. If this doesn't involve something tied to my hardware, then maybe I would be a customer when that happens.
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kaiwi
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by kaiwi on Apr 20, 2019 7:41:18 GMT -6
I have been in the gaming scene for about 26 Years now and to be honest i did some piracy myself, i stop that way back so, i understand wy you want to protect your game, people tend to forget that small developers do pour their lifeblood in the games, most do anyway.
Its hard to explain to some people why they can not have it all.
@all Just accept that this is way it will be, this is not EA we are talking about......and yes the purchase of this Game will be inconivent for me to, it do not have Pay Pall and i do not have a Credit Card (Never did need one here in Germany.) so i have to actually ask a good friend to lend me a hand with his credit card. But that is the price i have to pay so give the Store Owner and the Developer a break. Hell just wait until the Developer have figured out how they do the multi registration on different systems or whatever and then buy the game.
Belive me i have seen much worse over the years......sorry had to say this nothing personal against anyone here
And I respect the opinion of those that are fine with it.....but I don't think others just need to accept it. I have also been in the gaming scene for 35+ years...piracy was back then and still is now regardless of all these schemes put in place. I might be in the minority, but I have never pirated a game myself and I won't in this case either. I never said anyone has to accept my opinon i said we should perhaps accept the decion of the developer and the store owner here......i do not think the discusion is getting anywere somtimes you just have to accept the decison of puplisher and developers. In the past months/years it has become a regular thing to bring a hefty ceritic at puplishers/developers for their decisions...."whisper : Epic Store." i do not have the epic store and some devs/pups did loose money because they went epic store exclusiv... as much as i might not like it its not my decision, But it was my decison not to buy the games......and rather wait for the later and cheaper steam launch....a puplisher/developer will anyways never ever be able to make all costumers or potential ones 100% satisfiet... its a fact of human natures i think. There will at least always be somone that did want somthing else be it with the game itself or with the copyright system.
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Post by elouda on Apr 20, 2019 7:41:52 GMT -6
Regarding the above, that would be something akin to how Paradox did things before they moved to steam - IIRC, their older games were a simple download + serial number to install, with the additional option of registering the game on the forum to get access to tech support, modding, etc. forums.
Honestly, apart from the two-PC issue which is apparently being addressed, I don't really have a problem with the current proposed system. I do however, question just how effective it actually will be (I'm going to hedge on not very if anyone competent wants to crack it), and is it worth the effort and potential lost sales due to its inclusion. I know that in my case atleast it will probably put off a few people I recommended RTW1 to, and probably make it harder overall to market via word of mouth/text online. Its also an interesting question just how many of those 'lost sales to piracy' were actual potential sales to begin with for a game this niche.
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:47:03 GMT -6
And I respect the opinion of those that are fine with it.....but I don't think others just need to accept it. I have also been in the gaming scene for 35+ years...piracy was back then and still is now regardless of all these schemes put in place. I might be in the minority, but I have never pirated a game myself and I won't in this case either. I never said anyone has to accept my opinon i said we should perhaps accept the decion of the developer and the store owner here......i do not think the discusion is getting anywere somtimes you just have to accept the decison of puplisher and developers. In the past months/years it has become a regular thing to bring a hefty ceritic at puplishers/developers for their decisions...."whisper : Epic Store." i do not have the epic store and some devs/pups did loose money because they went epic store exclusiv... as much as i might not like it its not my decision, But it was my decison not to buy the games......and rather wait for the later and cheaper steam launch....a puplisher/developer will anyways never ever be able to make all costumers or potential ones 100% satisfiet... its a fact of human natures i think. There will at least always be somone that did want somthing else be it with the game itself or with the copyright system. yes, I understand the decision the company has made...and yes, they are free to do as they see fit. Likewise, its important for them to hear feedback whether people agree or not agree with it so these discussions are fine....of course your not going to ever have 100% acceptance. Ultimately each person will vote with their wallet.....and I have no issue if they are fine with the approach.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:47:05 GMT -6
To Grim,
Actually I did a locked forum years ago with WC.. only registered players were allowed to have more detailed discussions with the team and other players. Sort of like a membership forum.
As always though there are thoughts both ways on that one. We would prefer an open forum and a reasonable APS.
Thanks
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:48:22 GMT -6
Regarding the above, that would be something akin to how Paradox did things before they moved to steam - IIRC, their older games were a simple download + serial number to install, with the additional option of registering the game on the forum to get access to tech support, modding, etc. forums. Thanks for the detail....but how does that minimize piracy and ensure more sales? I am probably just missing something.
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Post by elouda on Apr 20, 2019 7:49:45 GMT -6
Regarding the above, that would be something akin to how Paradox did things before they moved to steam - IIRC, their older games were a simple download + serial number to install, with the additional option of registering the game on the forum to get access to tech support, modding, etc. forums. Thanks for the detail....but how does that minimize piracy and ensure more sales? I am probably just missing something. It doesn't altogether remove it, but it offers perks for -not- pirating it in the form of tech support, discussion and for the PDX games in particular, modding (this is from the era before steam workshop, etc).
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:50:10 GMT -6
To Grim, Actually I did a locked forum years ago with WC.. only registered players were allowed to have more detailed discussions with the team and other players. Sort of like a membership forum. As always though there are thoughts both ways on that one. We would prefer an open forum and a reasonable APS. Thanks Thanks, but to do that, would that just be using a serial number approach like you do today? Or in combination with a hardware check? If it was the serial number approach, I wouldn't have an issue (although I agree open forum better), I just wasn't following how that would minimize piracy or increase sales.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:51:36 GMT -6
A membership forum cuts down on time being used up for those that didn't bother to pay for the game itself. That has always been one of my concerns.. time is money especially if your trying to update the game or add more content. The respect should be given to those that actually paid for the game and that basically adds a bit of a perk and reward for those that did.
The APS/open forum direction was chosen instead of a locked membership forum.. but to anyone that thinks we are "locked in stone" that is never the case. We want to give it a run with this direction to see how it pans out but we are not so stubborn as to not to keep our options open at a later date.
Thanks
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:52:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the detail....but how does that minimize piracy and ensure more sales? I am probably just missing something. It doesn't altogether remove it, but it offers perks for -not- pirating it in the form of tech support, discussion and for the PDX games in particular, modding (this is from the era before steam workshop, etc). It's probably me just being dumb.....but if they pirated it and had access to the code used (or maybe I don't understand cracking software enough), wouldn't they still have what was needed to get access if they wanted? I am guessing the people who pirate likely keep a low key so might not be much of a forum participant anyway. But this is probably why it is hard to find the perfect solution:)
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:53:45 GMT -6
A membership forum cuts down on time being used up for those that didn't bother to pay for the game itself. That has always been one of my concerns.. time is money especially if your trying to update the game or add more content. The respect should be given to those that actually paid for the game and that basically adds a bit of a perk and reward for those that did. Yep, agree and get that part....I just wasn't understanding how it would cut down on people pirating the software since their only penalty would be not having support or looking at the forum. But guess this is why these decisions are not easy:)
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Post by elouda on Apr 20, 2019 7:54:29 GMT -6
Atleast for PDX, my understanding is that the serial codes were tied to the forum account once registered, so if you pirated it and used someone elses code, if they were already registered with that you could not do the same.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:55:47 GMT -6
"But guess this is why these decisions are not easy:)" When it comes to protecting product.. no decision is EVER easy.
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