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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 6:39:07 GMT -6
Hi kaiwi .. thanks for your support. 2 PCs for your own personal use is already being worked on. We already wanted that to start with. Updating the code for new installs within that 2 should be no problem. As to your "English".. heck in some ways its better then mine. Thanks friend.
I have been in the gaming scene for about 26 Years now and to be honest i did some piracy myself, i stop that way back so, i understand wy you want to protect your game, people tend to forget that small developers do pour their lifeblood in the games, most do anyway.
Its hard to explain to some people why they can not have it all.
@all Just accept that this is way it will be, this is not EA we are talking about......and yes the purchase of this Game will be inconivent for me to, it do not have Pay Pall and i do not have a Credit Card (Never did need one here in Germany.) so i have to actually ask a good friend to lend me a hand with his credit card. But that is the price i have to pay so give the Store Owner and the Developer a break. Hell just wait until the Developer have figured out how they do the multi registration on different systems or whatever and then buy the game.
Belive me i have seen much worse over the years......sorry had to say this nothing personal against anyone here
And I respect the opinion of those that are fine with it.....but I don't think others just need to accept it. I have also been in the gaming scene for 35+ years...piracy was back then and still is now regardless of all these schemes put in place. I might be in the minority, but I have never pirated a game myself and I won't in this case either.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 6:42:33 GMT -6
To Grim,
Then how about just (a) no perpetual honor system ... are publishers even allowed to do that much?
So are PC publishers not allowed in ANY way to protect the products? If they are allowed, how so?
Remember.. I am pretending I know nothing about piracy for the sake of argument.
Thanks
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 6:47:47 GMT -6
Then how about just (a) no perpetual honor system ... are publishers even allowed to do that much? So are PC publishers not allowed in ANY way to protect the products? If they are allowed, how so? Remember.. I am pretending I know nothing about piracy for the sake of argument. Thanks What is the problem with just a general license code like I believe the old version had or how Matrix does it? My personal problem is the tying to the hardware and specific computers, not you trying to protect yourselves. Although the manual processing of orders is less ideal for me, then is not my main problem. If I get one license code forever and I know I can use it no matter what happens to the company or if my PC changes, I don't have an issue. I know you'll say the serial code can be given to others so that won't pass your criteria....but somehow Matrix does just fine with it?
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Post by kasuga on Apr 20, 2019 6:52:16 GMT -6
Like... everyone who is here, bought RTW in spite of the ugly storefront, in spite of the weird system where a stranger has to email us our serial number after payment. I very nearly did not make that purchase because it was too weird. I am certain there are many more people who were turned away entirely. If this additional barrier had been up then, I would not have risked my money. You guys really need to rethink this. To be fair i prefer an ugly store and need a guy mail me the serial BUT the game i buyed is MINE and i dont need care if i change PC or HD or if i want install it in the number of PCs- laptops i want-need OVER "lease" the game and if i need install it in another piece of hardware "beg" for a new installation. From a customer perspective DRM is allways a problem and is not the first time pay customers needed use a crack to play a game they buyed, as personal situation i remember use a crack to play certain games ii buyed without need use the game CD... as customer i search easy things, install and play and dont care about if i have the game installed in other PC i am going to canibalize to use it in another role and i dont remember uninstall it or i need ask permission to install a game i payed in a new PC or laptop. I dont have nothing against you but the DRM decision is bullshit specially when i can skip it sometime ago after game release and dont paying money for solution and game... who is not going pay money for your game is not going pay for it but who planed pay for game maybe is going to hold on credit card with your new DRM.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:03:59 GMT -6
To Grim,
Out of professional respect and past relations I cannot discuss Matrix - but they have suffered some pretty hefty losses for lack of protection before, and in ways most people without a background on the topic would even consider. I am not going to teach others how to rip off a publisher - regardless of what someone may think of my "opinion" about "data". Call it what you want, but I cannot go further with that topic, nor will I, but they could not simply ignore the losses. Some various other publishers also took some hard hits as well, not just Matrix.. not going any further.
As to the code... PC changes will not be every time you do a little upgrade, we are not that nuts. If we stop selling RTW2 we can cut the APS system if needed.
Again. we are wargamers first.. not DRM freaks. We needed something, otherwise RTW2 would likely not happen at all, and that would be the end of the debate.
Thanks.
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Post by dorn on Apr 20, 2019 7:07:49 GMT -6
I have been in the gaming scene for about 26 Years now and to be honest i did some piracy myself, i stop that way back so, i understand wy you want to protect your game, people tend to forget that small developers do pour their lifeblood in the games, most do anyway.
Its hard to explain to some people why they can not have it all.
@all Just accept that this is way it will be, this is not EA we are talking about......and yes the purchase of this Game will be inconivent for me to, it do not have Pay Pall and i do not have a Credit Card (Never did need one here in Germany.) so i have to actually ask a good friend to lend me a hand with his credit card. But that is the price i have to pay so give the Store Owner and the Developer a break. Hell just wait until the Developer have figured out how they do the multi registration on different systems or whatever and then buy the game.
Belive me i have seen much worse over the years......sorry had to say this nothing personal against anyone here
And I respect the opinion of those that are fine with it.....but I don't think others just need to accept it. I have also been in the gaming scene for 35+ years...piracy was back then and still is now regardless of all these schemes put in place. I might be in the minority, but I have never pirated a game myself and I won't in this case either. NWS choose this way, you can agree and buy or this is breaking point for you and will not buy. It is everybody free choice but frankly speaking if you are interested in game so much it is difficult to believe it is breaking point. And this game does not focus on ordinary player, look at simple graphic. If you want play RTW2 you need to love system not look. In this case you buy it anaway. Frankly speaking it can be breaking point for someone who just have money and it is one from many many games he regularly try. But I think NWS thought about that and decided that this disadvantages is lower than possible anti-piracy advantages. And there are much more things for them to think about. They are the ones with best information to decide not mentioning they are only ones deciding and they think this is best way. They can be wrong as nobody can see future but they have good chance be right. And wish them they are right because it means best for them and in long run best for US! As long as I can play at any 2 platforms and I can substitute these platforms for anothers as time pass I have no problem to send one mail for each transfer which should be one per long time. And they confirm they will do it.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:10:05 GMT -6
BTW.. we are looking at a new store front primarily for NWS products only. I may move the entire store to the new layout later after some initial trials.
Granted the present setup is lacks in fanciness but it has been very stable and I have a reasonably strong support contact for it. I keep it down on fancy stuff as that can cause complexities and more ways to break the system.
What mattered is that it works for what I needed at the time. However the present store system cannot handle larger DD files so a move to a new layout has become required.
Thanks
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:10:48 GMT -6
Out of professional respect and past relations I cannot discuss Matrix - but they have suffered some pretty hefty losses for lack of protection before, and in ways most people without a background on the topic would even consider. I am not going to teach others how to rip off a publisher - regardless of what someone may think of my "opinion" about "data". Call it what you want, but I cannot go further with that topic, nor will I, but they could not simply ignore the losses. Some various other publishers also took some hard hits as well, not just Matrix.. not going any further. As to the code... PC changes will not be every time you do a little upgrade, we are not that nuts. If we stop selling RTW2 we can cut the APS system if needed. Again. we are wargamers first.. not DRM freaks. We needed something, otherwise RTW2 would likely not happen at all, and that would be the end of the debate. Thanks. But yet Matrix still uses the same process even if they had all those loses? This is obvious not an area we can discuss since you keep saying you can't talk about it so probably an area we shouldn't keep bringing up. Without facts and specifics, hard to continue that part of the discussion. I'll never understand why that is so secret, but nonetheless not that important I guess. And yes, I know you have good intentions of removing the protection if something happens, but it is "possible" that maybe something happens in the future where that is not possible....may not be likely, but possible.
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Post by yemo on Apr 20, 2019 7:14:57 GMT -6
Ah.. actually "anti-piracy experience", we are definitely not novices there.. that is all I will say. The Graf would have been utterly destroyed in port as an RAF/RN training on the job bomb sponge or ended up being a flash in the pan Bismarck or Tirpitz.. the KM CV concept was doomed before it ever started IMHO for a variety of reasons. ;-) Again, got a better idea that does not involve the honor system, reasonable protection, and no third party? We are all ears.. Thanks A full on consultation is not free of charge.
But I will say this: How much armour do you put on your ship designs? It seems like you are fighting an enemy that only uses 6 and 15 inch guns and you armour up against 12 inch guns. Accept that you can not protect yourself against the 15 inch battlecruisers and instead make sure they can not economically catch you or that you have the numbers to absorb losses.
There is no reasonable cruiser protection against 15 inch guns, most have moved on from the armoured cruiser concept for a reason. You should not discard armour on your cruisers alltogether, but find a balance that does not sacrifice so much of your main mission capabilities for so little in return.
I state my question again:
Do you seriously think you turn pirates into customers with this? (Because dissuading piracy and turning pirates into customers are two very different things)
And even more than turning customers into pirates by offering an inferior product?
If I wanted to increase profits, I would take lessons learned from the last 2+ decades into account. And work on your marketing and especially on your conversion rate. World of Warships has increased interest in pre-cold war naval combat from the tactical side, the HoI Man the Guns addon has increased interest from the strategic side. You are seeing increased piracy for one simple reason: Your game is noticed by a more mainstream audience than your wargaming titles before that. And instead of thinking about how to convert that "outside" interest into profits, you antagonize your core wargaming audience. How does the conversion process look like for a person coming from either of those two games? Go ask someone playing these games to take a look at rule the waves and describe their thought process to you. The graphics will turn people off, but that is expected. But listen closely to those who are not turned off by the graphics. Or start by simply typing in "rule the waves" into google and imagine you are not a wargaming veteran (because you are 20 and come from world of warships).
You honestly think that this store.nws-online.net/ruwaddo.html will entice people to spend 35$, with that one screenshot that does not even show the ship designer and its options, if they do not have prior experience in the wargaming world (and their late 90s/early 2000s websites)? I ll tell you what happens. The ones who do not give up after seeing this, will watch youtube videos (where they will likely come from anyway) and then download the pirate copy to see if it is worth it. And then decide to wait for RTW2, which is not mentioned on the RTW1 store page 5 days before RTW2 launch. You think it is a good impression to take 25$ without warning that the sequel is 5 days away which incorporates the same time period, but with improvements?
I say it again, you draw the wrong conclusions from your observations (of increased piracy), because you see the world through your doctrine (wargaming community frame of mind). The japanese say hello.
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 7:15:51 GMT -6
And I respect the opinion of those that are fine with it.....but I don't think others just need to accept it. I have also been in the gaming scene for 35+ years...piracy was back then and still is now regardless of all these schemes put in place. I might be in the minority, but I have never pirated a game myself and I won't in this case either. NWS choose this way, you can agree and buy or this is breaking point for you and will not buy. It is everybody free choice but frankly speaking if you are interested in game so much it is difficult to believe it is breaking point. And this game does not focus on ordinary player, look at simple graphic. If you want play RTW2 you need to love system not look. In this case you buy it anaway. Frankly speaking it can be breaking point for someone who just have money and it is one from many many games he regularly try. But I think NWS thought about that and decided that this disadvantages is lower than possible anti-piracy advantages. And there are much more things for them to think about. They are the ones with best information to decide not mentioning they are only ones deciding and they think this is best way. They can be wrong as nobody can see future but they have good chance be right. And wish them they are right because it means best for them and in long run best for US! As long as I can play at any 2 platforms and I can substitute these platforms for anothers as time pass I have no problem to send one mail for each transfer which should be one per long time. And they confirm they will do it. Your entitled to your opinion as well as myself...this has nothing to do with the quality, graphics, money I have, or content of the game. Up until I read this yesterday, it was on my list as a first day purchase. People may not agree with me and that is OK...just at some point getting tired of all these DRM schemes (not just this company) that make it harder on the honest people. You are completely correct the company can and will decide what they do and I am fully aware that my opinion will not change that. Just felt it was important to provide another point of view.
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Post by kasuga on Apr 20, 2019 7:17:53 GMT -6
Well, in my case i didnt buy the Eagle Storm naval games thanks to the crap DRM they used (well to be fair was not a great help all the problem game had with add-ons not working or even breaking the base game) and i buy one but no more games from Battlefront after need a little odisey to made it work when i reinstall it time ago in a new PC, i simple skip their products, i dont like pay for something and need invest time in made it working.
I want RTW2??? yes, i am going to play it first day with DRM??? no, specially when its a new DRM and i dont know if is going work fine or not, i dont like buy something but in the end the thing i buy is not mine because i depend of a 3rd part to use it as i want or need.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 7:22:55 GMT -6
To Grim, As to how publishers survive, there is far more too it then that.. done. My professionalism is more important to me then proving a point on a debate that will never end regardless of what answer I give, no disrespect. I can tell you this..the VAST majority of articles do NOT cover how some publishers suffer some their most severe losses to piracy. Well.. having people in multiple locations that can help keeps that chances of not having backups pretty slim.
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Post by faennion on Apr 20, 2019 7:29:37 GMT -6
Tbh, I'm going to buy this game and the DRM wont stop me, but I do have a question for the store owner. Do you really think the DRM will stop piracy, I mean yeah it is going to stop people from pirating it early on, especially since its niche and the people who crack games aren't very interested in it.But is it really going to be uncracked in a year or two since iirc you want to stop the piracy which happens after a while.
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Post by akosjaccik on Apr 20, 2019 7:30:39 GMT -6
Of course, the arguments are moot, as seemingly the decision is set in stone - and I respect that; if this helps the team sleep better, fair enough. Let them do what they deem necessary, I want to support them with my purchase regardless, and if things get out of hand, I'll do what I deem necessary as well.
But yes, I don't get either, why third party "complicates things", as that would be the proper, 21th century answer to the heightened interest: opening up the distributional channels and pushing trough positive advertisement instead of trying to close the shutters down in vain. With that said, I sincerely hope that the publisher's hopes will be fulfilled - not much else to talk about at this point.
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Post by alexbrunius on Apr 20, 2019 7:30:53 GMT -6
To be able to argue that money was lost due to Piracy and that DRM could have improved the situation you need to:
1.) Prove that a significant amount of the people that pirated the game would have bought the game if pirating was not an option for them. Let's call this A.
2.) Prove that a DRM solution could have prevented these pirates / potential customers A and converted them into actual extra sales. Let's call the this amount gained from sales B.
3.) Prove that sales lost due to upset customers or customers not getting the game to work/play the way they want and not buying the next game as well as increased support and development costs for the DRM was not a significant factor. Lets call this amount of lost sales and added support/dev cost C.
I have yet to see any creditable scientific study that can make a good argument that B > C and that DRM is profitable. I'm much interrested in reading one though so if you know of one please let me know.
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