The role of cruisers from the '30s onwards

[snwh]

So to set the scene, its 1934. My main line of CA's are now nearly ten years old (a pair are almost 15!). Along with that, my main workhorse battle cruisers were all completed in 1918, and because of a treaty, brought up to modern spec. My Battleships are even worse off, despite being more modern (mainly, their turret and deck armor is pretty bad, I wasn't thinking when I made them).

Anyway, this leaves me in the interesting position of being able to build a capital fleet mostly from scratch. But when I went to do this, it got me thinking. You can make some absolutely monstrous light ships now, and aircraft carriers can lift a lot of weight in the right weather.

You can make 'light' cruisers right up to 10k tons, which is the same size as a lot of heavy cruisers I see now. And you can make DD's up to 2600 tons. That's almost a light cruiser.

So where do battleships fit into this, and more importantly, the humble CA? Do you guys still build them? How do you build them? My gut instinct is to go small, 8" guns, and armor them against 6" guns. But are they really that useful, when you already have a battlecruiser in most battles now? Would it be better just to get a battlecruiser, instead of two CA's, or whatever the price would be?

Another thing to think about, at this point, I've been getting a lot more use out of my battlecruisers, than my battleships. This might simply be because my battleships were poorly designed, but when it comes to screening carriers, hunting down older battleships, or dueling with other battlecruisers, I've gotten a lot more bang for my buck out of my BC's. Maybe a fast battleship would work, but I can't help but wonder if battleships have outlived their usefulness by this point.


Anyway, I won't ramble on any more, and to be honest I could be totally wrong with my line of thinking. I don't always make good design choices in this game lol, but its so much fun to experiment. I just want to hear your guys's thoughts.

[alias72]

While I have yet to reach this point in my game I think it at least points to the following principle. Go big or go home. By 1930 the scale of battleships should be around 60000 tons and be armoured against a staggering variety of threats or it will not be of any use. The ultimate conclusion of this logic is expressed in the Japanese super-battleship Yamato. Unless you are willing to go full-Yamato battleships as a weapon of war are, for all intents and purposes, dead. On the plus side your cruisers are probably just as well armed as old battleships so, from a certain point of view, naval escalation has played itself.

[mycophobia]

In my japanese play through, I had some spare money in the mid 30s after finishing my latest BCs and decided to experiment with torpedo cruisers. So I managed to cook up a pair of 8500 ton cruiser at 33 knots, 3in belt and 32 tubes total distributed evenly on both side. The plan was for to dump my long range torpedos at an enemy battleline and hopefully get some hits.

So far it saw combat once, with one of the two cruiser bumping into a French BC in a night action at about 1000yards. It quickly got demolished by the BC in under 5minute(that many oxygen torpedo on deck is waiting for a boom to happen lol) but was able to put out 4 torpedos and scoring two hits. I’d try take the other one out for a spin in the next war and see how that goes.


Edit: In my next war against the French the reaming torpedo cruiser and a heavy cruiser encountered a lone modern French Fast BB with 16in guns(Unfortunately during clear day time).The CA drew fire while the torpedo cruiser closed in, and tanking the secondary fire with her 3in belt. After emptying at least 24+ of her 32 tubes, she was able to put 3 torp in the French BB which limped back to port ( was about 15% away from sinking), sadly my CA did not survive this ordeal and was sunk from multiple 16in hits. The torpedo cruiser however took 27 hit from the French BB's 5in secondary and was only lightly damaged. Could make this a interesting option in a night battle scenario.

[luna]

Trade protection and raiding. That's what I use cruisers for. Hunting down enemy raiders with battleships or battlecruisers isn't really viable since you can't afford to build enough of those. Late game my battleships and battlecruisers are pretty much identical and my light and heavy cruisers are pretty much the same layout and specifications too, though I typically just put bigger guns on the heavy cruisers. That said, I have used 6 inch main armament on a heavy cruiser before, but that was mostly designed as an AA cruiser and it didn't do so hot in convoy defense when the enemy brought a cruiser with tons of 8 inchers against me. Had to run away from that.

I'm not sure I'm with the idea that you can get a battlecruiser for the price of 2 CAs though. My fully decked out CA costs 63k in 1950. The cheapest BC I can get to fill the same kind of role is around 80k, which is less than double the price... BUT, the problem here is that said BC would be just as useless in fleet engagements even tho it's much better armed and armored than the heavy cruiser, because it's still massively under armed and armored compared to the contemporary battleship. If I scale it up so it's not worthless in fleet engagements, the cost balloons to double what it was before. But then it's still sub par compared to what I'd like to have when it comes to battlecruisers and if I go that far we are looking at a cost of 230k (same cost for a BB) each which is like more than 3 heavy cruisers. But yeah, I think heavy cruisers make more sense than battlecruisers if you're looking to protect your convoys or to raid. You can have more of them, so they can be in more places at the same time. Battlecruisers are too concentrated in small numbers. Also there is the additional problem with BCs, that they are a very expensive and delicious target for airplanes. They can't be unescorted if you wanna keep 'em. In my game air attacks are actually becoming a problem, and even a modern and up to spec battlecruiser gets mauled by bombers. Haven't lost a single one yet, but they've taken some serious damage from air attacks. Including one lost both forward turrets from a single bomb.

As for how I build them cruisers, here's the 63k one I mentioned earlier. Only major flaw with it is the awful speed, but I didn't want to bloat the cost and weight.

[ramjb]

May 21, 2019 18:56:45 GMT -6 snwh said:

You can make 'light' cruisers right up to 10k tons, which is the same size as a lot of heavy cruisers I see now. And you can make DD's up to 2600 tons. That's almost a light cruiser.

CLs can still only sport 3'' belt armor tops (which btw makes magazine box option completely suicidal). That's a HUGE deal. If you want a fleet cruiser, it's going to need more armor than that, so CA is the way to go. And yes, I've built "cleveland" CAs (so has the AI, btw, seen several "brooklyn-like" CAs by now).


CLs have a role for colonial work, trade protection, raiding, and experiments; for instance, haven't done it thus far but I'll eventually try an Atlanta-like CL at some point or another - that kind of AAA can't be sneezed at and in night engagements so many light guns will be fun to watch.

Oh and they can carry a $"·"tload of mines too, so having a good number of them can be useful in indirect ways too.

[trenton59]

I've had a fair bit of success using fast battleships in the 45-50k ton range with 3x3 16" and as much armor as can be added into 1943, with the caveat that they are meant to be fairly expendable and are intended to fix the enemy line in place for massed carrier strikes more than winning the gunnery duel (although they often can). As far as light cruisers go I've built mostly 7,500-8,500t 4x3 6" designs and they work well at night or as fleet screens/AAA escorts.

[skyhawk]

I'm experimenting with doing away with cruisers all together by the mid to late 30s.

Its a medium size game as Italy and I'm down to just two fairly modern CLs and nothing else cruiser wise.
I did, however, just build my first 2000t DDs and they're powerhouses...4x2 6"+1 turrets, 10 tubes in
4Center/3Wing/3Wing layout, a decent spread of Medium and Light AA, and a decent ASW load. They're larger,
faster, stronger, and just all around more capable than any other DD out there...and better and more
modern than half the CL competition out there currently. And they and their future relatives are just
going to get better. DP 6" guns, radar, 2600t displacements...why bother with CLs at this point?

Has anyone else done this yet? You could get strong end of game DDs in RTW1 but we're taking it to a
whole new level now and i'm wondering how well we can do with ships like this.

[ramjb]

If what you describe is correct, probably a malus to the RoF and accuracy of 6'' guns in DDs is in order. I mean, we all know how well 150mms worked for the german destroyers...and those were actually bigger than 2500 tons standard.

[namuras]

May 21, 2019 23:20:52 GMT -6 skyhawk said:

I'm experimenting with doing away with cruisers all together by the mid to late 30s.

Its a medium size game as Italy and I'm down to just two fairly modern CLs and nothing else cruiser wise.
I did, however, just build my first 2000t DDs and they're powerhouses...4x2 6"+1 turrets, 10 tubes in
4Center/3Wing/3Wing layout, a decent spread of Medium and Light AA, and a decent ASW load. They're larger,
faster, stronger, and just all around more capable than any other DD out there...and better and more
modern than half the CL competition out there currently. And they and their future relatives are just
going to get better. DP 6" guns, radar, 2600t displacements...why bother with CLs at this point?

Has anyone else done this yet? You could get strong end of game DDs in RTW1 but we're taking it to a
whole new level now and i'm wondering how well we can do with ships like this.

I did build Fletcher clones and upgraded them to 4x2 5" DP in the late 30s / early 40s. They do work nice, tho they can't hold up against concentrated airattacks / CL or CA attacks on their own.

Which is why i build Brooklyn clones aswell as 8" Baltimore clones to escort CVs.

CLs also have the advantage of sporting some ridicilous amounts of mines later on.

[deeznuts]

i find that late game the AI doesnt even build light cruisers, so building light cruisers is just asking the battle creation system to pit yours against heavy cruisers

[wknehring]

I started to build some 2000ts DDs with the Kriegsmarine beginning in 1930 with 4x2 4"Qu1 and 2x4TT at 35 knots- they are really good. Once I can build 5" DP twins on 2600ts DDs, they get them and 2x5 TTs and perhaps 36-37 knots (I don´t know if this works)- I think these are good enough to deal with most of the competition. And I hope they are enoug "unworthy" targets for airstrikes.

About the CAs, I built some 3x2 and 4x2 8" CAs with 4x2 4"Qu1 DP-Secondaries, 28-30 knots (early designs beginning in 1925 are a bit slower). Immunity against 6", long range, oil firing, reliable engines, 2x3 TTs- only for raiding.
The problem was- I had to fight GB after the Führer took over Germany in 1933 and tension increased significantly within a few months (I didn´t provoce GB- I had an alliance with the US which rose tension and after the Führer-thing, the US canceled it and tension rose further with bothh nations). In addition all my 6 CA were in a refit (Qu 0 to Qu1 4" and 8") and I could not use them in the war (which only lasted 4 months and costed me my 2 most modern CAs as reparation to GB). I think with all my 6 CAs on raiding and my 60 subs on unrestricted submarine warfare, I could have excersised the Royal Navy a bit longer (I hope there wil be some kind of diversion-effect, taking away some pressure of my homefleet). But I guess there will be more wars to come and I will give feedback (and perhaps I will understand how to use my CVL and bring my torpedobombers into fight- I had one convoy attack were I failed all the way because I had no experience with the carrier-attack thing- 24 bombers against a battleline of 3 old and 1 modern dreadnoughts- that must be some big VP!).
And luckily I was able to build my first 2 BBs (15"Qu1) before another treaty (~1937; 10000ts/8" for 10 years) scrapped most of the BB-fleets and 81 of my subs (now the US has the biggest fleet with 6 BBs! GB only has 4 and some BC- so my 2 BBs have a fair chance). Now I feel confident my diversion plan with CAs will fully kick in. On the plus side is, I can build 11000ts CA, because the Führer gives a sh.. about treaties

The reason I don´t build CL for raiding is, they get contered by other CL or even cheap CA. As the smallest navy I have to act unconventional but effective. There is no room for mistakes and sacrifice CL against enemy CL. And a CL doesn´t challenge a BC or a BB.
There is one thing I am thinking about at the moment- raiding DDs! Think about the German Spähkreuzer (recon cruiser) that was some kind of DD leader/large DD for oceanic warfare. maybe I can build a 2600ts DD with 2x2 5" DP, 1x5TT with reloads, some AA, longe range reliable diesel-engines with the highest possible speed. If this works, I won´t build anything else for raiding and start to build my CAs with lots of 6" (some Mogamis or Brooklyns).

[pedroig]

In general CL's are "designed" for one of two roles:

DD Flotilla "Flagship", so kitted out to kill DD's and not be killed by them. (3" armor v 5" guns at 7k whilst shooting 6-7" guns back) near DD speed. The Spähkreuzer is a prime example. (The U.S. is a horrible example for cruisers in general, exception to follow)

"Fleet AA" ship, DP mains (5-6 singles), DP Secondaries 3-4" Doubles, DP Tertiary 2-3" Doubles, AA nests at min CV/BB speed. (The Atlanta, and the Belt armour doesn't matter, it was never designed to see action against a gunship larger than a DD anyway.

For raiding and trade protection, use "light" AC's with good speed.

[skyhawk]

May 21, 2019 23:57:29 GMT -6 ramjb said:

If what you describe is correct, probably a malus to the RoF and accuracy of 6'' guns in DDs is in order. I mean, we all know how well 150mms worked for the german destroyers...and those were actually bigger than 2500 tons standard.

My current build has a -10% RoF reduction at 2000t. It should disappear once I get 2600t vessels. I will admit I'm aiming for something between a 5.9" Z-class and a Mogador(sp).