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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 18:35:12 GMT -6
I decided to see what could be done just after the first wave of advances. This meant a tiny bit of weight savings in machinery, armor, and hull, and also the ability to use 2-barrel secondary wing turrets of 8-10" without a ROF penalty.
I came up with a design that has 2x2 - 12" guns, 4x2 - 8" guns, and 16x1 - 6" tertiaries in casemates. The checkmark shows "All OK".
My question is whether the ship's accuracy will suffer from the use of 8" secondaries as compared with ignoring this new capability and continuing to use 6" secondaries in casemates?
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Post by hmssophia on May 25, 2019 18:50:44 GMT -6
I mean it should logically absolutely suffer as all pre-dreads did from having a mixed main battery.
But an 8 inch and a 6 inch ain't that different for aiming.
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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 18:59:30 GMT -6
I mean it should logically absolutely suffer as all pre-dreads did from having a mixed main battery. But an 8 inch and a 6 inch ain't that different for aiming. Thoughts comparing the accuracy of: - 12" main, 6" secondaries in casemates, and no tertiaries - 12" main, 8" secondaries in turrets, and no tertiaries - 12" main, 8" secondaries in turrets, and 6" tertiaries - 12" main, 10" secondaries in turrets, and 6" tertiaries |
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Post by rodentnavy on May 25, 2019 19:09:56 GMT -6
I mean it should logically absolutely suffer as all pre-dreads did from having a mixed main battery. But an 8 inch and a 6 inch ain't that different for aiming. Thoughts comparing the accuracy of: - 12" main, 6" secondaries in casemates, and no tertiaries - 12" main, 8" secondaries in turrets, and no tertiaries - 12" main, 8" secondaries in turrets, and 6" tertiaries - 12" main, 10" secondaries in turrets, and 6" tertiaries I am not sure that it has a lot of in game impact, there is scant evidence it actually had a whole load of impact in RL. Recall that the secondaries are firing under local control, mostly judging the range by eye with only fairly basic optical aids. That said in game I am not sure your tertiaries always bother shooting at larger ships. They mostly reflect the anti-torpedo boat armaments of larger units that were not even meant to manned in a fleet action. I know they almost never did on the 12,500 ton 2x2 9" CA generic design which carried 12x1 3" guns in addition to their 6" secondaries and often you had the frustrating situation of wanting to finish off some lamed protected cruiser while being out of ammo for the larger guns and the 3" guns not even firing. That said I am sure I have spotted the tertiaries firing in certain circumstances, engaging TRs for instance so I am not entirely sure what game mechanic triggers them. |
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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 19:16:40 GMT -6
Hmm... so it's sounding like using the secondary 8" double-barrel turrets is worth doing (for the turrets), if one builds a battleship before unlocking 3 center line turrets at all.
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Post by aeson on May 25, 2019 19:21:07 GMT -6
Yes, your semidreadnought will suffer an accuracy penalty when its main and secondary batteries are firing on the same target - the heavy secondary battery essentially counts as a second ship firing on the same target, interfering with spotting the fall of the shells in the same way as two ships both firing their main batteries at the target would.
Whether or not the heavier guns are worthwhile is harder to say; the accuracy penalty isn't that bad while engagement ranges remain short, but the main battery becomes more and more dominant over the first decade of the game, and the locally-controlled heavy secondary battery probably won't be doing much more for you than a 6" secondary battery would by about 1910 or perhaps a bit earlier because engagement ranges have climbed to the point that local control is no longer really adequate. I'd say try semidreadnoughts out at least once and decide for yourself if you like their particular advantages and disadvantages enough to build them in the brief window where they're the most heavily armed ships you can build.
When I experimented with it in Rule the Waves, it appeared as though 2" and 3" tertiary guns would normally only fire on destroyers while 4" and heavier tertiary guns would normally fire on anything in range. I don't know how well that holds up in Rule the Waves 2.
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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 19:33:05 GMT -6
Yes, your semidreadnought will suffer an accuracy penalty when its main and secondary batteries are firing on the same target - the heavy secondary battery essentially counts as a second ship firing on the same target, interfering with spotting the fall of the shells in the same way as two ships both firing their main batteries at the target would. Whether or not the heavier guns are worthwhile is harder to say; the accuracy penalty isn't that bad while engagement ranges remain short, but the main battery becomes more and more dominant over the first decade of the game, and the locally-controlled heavy secondary battery probably won't be doing much more for you than a 6" secondary battery would by about 1910 or perhaps a bit earlier because engagement ranges have climbed to the point that local control is no longer really adequate. I'd say try semidreadnoughts out at least once and decide for yourself if you like their particular advantages and disadvantages enough to build them in the brief window where they're the most heavily armed ships you can build. My interest is the double barrel turrets, not the larger guns, if that matters. If I could use 6" double barrel turrets, I would go that route. That would make sense, since the 3" have zero penetration. I suspect the game has them fire HE only. |
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Post by Gerack on May 25, 2019 20:10:50 GMT -6
Hmm... so it's sounding like using the secondary 8" double-barrel turrets is worth doing (for the turrets), if one builds a battleship before unlocking 3 center line turrets at all. Don't quote me on this one, but if I remember correctly, guns of 6inch and below can not flash fire. This means you can get away with having them in casemates or in turrets with just enough armor to stop splinters. If flashfires affect secondaries (which I believe they do) anything above 6inch would be a big no-no.. I'm no expert so you may want to confirm this before action on it, but I do avoid big guns as secondaries. |
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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 20:16:19 GMT -6
Hmm... so it's sounding like using the secondary 8" double-barrel turrets is worth doing (for the turrets), if one builds a battleship before unlocking 3 center line turrets at all. Don't quote me on this one, but if I remember correctly, guns of 6inch and below can not flash fire. This means you can get away with having them in casemates or in turrets with just enough armor to stop splinters. If flashfires affect secondaries (which I believe they do) anything above 6inch would be a big no-no.. I'm no expert so you may want to confirm this before action on it, but I do avoid big guns as secondaries. Hmm, well I mean, it seems like a shame for these techs to be completely useless. I have read some people on these forums say that flash fires don't affect secondaries, but I have no idea if there's a consensus. I have no idea myself. |
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Post by aeson on May 25, 2019 20:41:05 GMT -6
I have read some people on these forums say that flash fires don't affect secondaries, but I have no idea if there's a consensus. I have no idea myself. For Rule the Waves 1, we have something better than consensus: we have the word of the developer that there should be no chance of flash fires in secondary guns of 6" and below. Whether or not that remains true in Rule the Waves 2 I do not know.
You can always use secondary 6" or lighter twin turrets; you just have to be willing to accept a 40%/20%/10% reliability/ROF penalty to do it without the right techs. It's not great, but it's also not completely terrible, especially later in the predreadnought period or in the early dreadnought period when main battery guns have gotten powerful enough to occasionally penetrate the target's armor, and the penalties get reduced to the penalty for your current technology level every time you refit the ship so it's not something that the ship's stuck with forever.
I believe that the techs that reduce the penalties on 6" and lighter secondary twin turrets are Medium Wing Turrets (c.1901), Reliable Power Training and Elevation (c.1914), and Improved Power Training and Elevation (c.1920). Medium Wings and Reliable Power Training each halve the penalty; Improved Power Training eliminates it.
The techs are not completely useless. Semidreadnought battleships are reasonably viable for the brief window before enough dreadnought battleships come into service to render them obsolete.
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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 21:00:55 GMT -6
Thanks. That's solid info.
Medium Wing Turrets is the one that allows the use of 8-10" double turreted secondaries. Before that they are impossible. It doesn't affect the 6". Nothing improves the 6" in turrets until the second one you mentioned: Reliable Power Training and Elevation (c.1914). To me that means a 40% ROF reduction for the life of the ship. So for me it's either 6" casemates, 8" dual turrets, or 10" dual turrets.
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Post by deeznuts on May 25, 2019 22:43:17 GMT -6
6 inch guns can flashfire on light cruisers and heavy cruisers, I don’t think they can flash fire on BB’s, heavier than 6 Inches definitely can.
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Post by trifler on May 25, 2019 23:29:34 GMT -6
Yeah, I was hoping to use this tech to improve the capabilities of the secondaries, but this tech seems much more about increasing main firepower with small wing turrets. I guess I should have realized from the start since it's called "Medium Wing Turrets".
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Post by tbr on May 26, 2019 0:26:31 GMT -6
Semidreadnoughts and pre-semnidreadnoughts (10inch secondary turrets, no RTW defined "heavy guns") indeed do have two small windows of uitility. The first one is before true dreadnought become viable. They can be deadly in close melee, especially because the heavy secondaries can fire to both sides at once. Tha can lead to better performance than early dreadnoughts when penetrating the enemy battleline at night.
The second window is just after secondary directors become available where semidreadnoughts can, for a time, perform better than dreadnoughts against smaller-than-BB targets at up to medium range. That ends when more plentiful heavy batteries are coupled with better directors and the better HE/AP techs. This window is too small to deliberately design for it but can give old predreadnoughts a "second spring" in the back of the battleline or secondary theatres.
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Post by wknehring on May 26, 2019 1:43:40 GMT -6
Normally in games with 10 to 30% varied tech I build any Semi-Dreadnoughts. Those normally get 2x2 11"/12" + 4x2 10" + 20-24 4"/5" (depends on which caliber has the better quality) and 4 sub TTs. Belt 11-12", belt extended 3-4", deck 2-2,5", deck extended 1,5", CT 12", turrets like belt, turret tops a third of turret front, secondaries 4". Those ships have a weight about 18000ts. I try to put them on 22 knots and do a bulge-refit after commissioning.
Than you switch your ammo loadout to AP shoting at low ranges with large and medium calibers, rest is HE. And than you search for knife fights. 20 knots is enough to dictate the rules of engagements. What you cannot penetrate you burn down.
Another valid Semi-Dreadnought is a similar faster ship (~24-25 knots) with 2x2 12" + 6x2 10" + 12-16 4"/5", belt ~8", deck ~2", used as early BC (like the Japanese Satsuma). This thing can make it in the mid game when used for 2nd line duties.
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